[PLEASE STAND BY] GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. EVERYBODY CAFFEINATED? IF WE COULD ALL TAKE OUR SEATS THAT WOULD BE GREAT. WE ARE GETTING THIS SHOW ON THE ROAD AND BEFORE WE PASS IT OVER TO THE REENTRY FOLKS, I HAVE A FEW REMINDERS. TONIGHT WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING STRUCTURED AFTER 5:45 P.M. WE MADE SOME RESERVATIONS AT LOCAL RESTAURANTS IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN DINING WITH OTHER PARTICIPANTS. PLEASE SIGN UP BY THE END OF LUNCH. The other thing is that after this is over we have a break for 10 minutes. We need to change the room back to the inner circle and outer circle set up. I ask everybody take all of their stuff and coffee and migrate to the lobby for that break. We have a few new folks who, due to travel delays, are joining us for the first time. I would ask them to come up here and give a quick hello, name, and affiliation. Don't be shy. 

>> and widths -- I'm with Southern Methodist University's school of arts. We focus on interdisciplinary art, intersection on the and community engagement. You

>> I run the BU arts initiative at Boston University. All that fun stuff. 

>> Kassie Mason, New Hampshire State Council on the arts. As 

>> we have a couple of things going on in Washington, a couple of things we are keeping an eye on. It's nice to be here in Boston despite the teens temperatures. My major focus has been working on the arts and military space, first with the national initiative for arts and military. Wonderful to see so many people whose projects I see on our Facebook group. I am so pleased to be joining you all. Most recently -- Healing arts network. We are quite privileged and delighted to have an association with that project. We love the New England foundation for the arts and all you guys have done to really raise visibility and support artists in this space. I am very psyched to be here. 

>> I am Rebecca, a music therapist with creative forces. I currently work at the Walter Reed center. 

>> welcome. If you have questions, find anybody who has tape on their name tag. I'm going to pass it off to Quita Sullivan. 

>> Good morning. When the national theater project was first piloted in 2010, one of the very first projects supported was reentry by American records. Its focus on the Marine experience and reaching a community that was perceived then as impossible was instrumental. It was the beginning of reaching those communities who aren't the stereotypical theater audience. It changed the expectations of what was possible. Kj's vision cut the interest of the advisors and was instrumental in awarding the grant. In the seven years the project received support it has been awarded to universities and regional theaters, it has toured to military bases at home and Germany abroad. It has full performances. It has military chapels. I have seen both out for and beta versions. And for me the most remarkable thing were the comments and experience of the children of actively serving military. We are still laughing about that one. ReEntry continues to have a life and impact. It received a grant to support touring a naval version of the show. We do know there are significant differences between the communities. KJ sends her best wishes. She is sorry she can't be here with us today. This is near and dear to her heart. We are going to hear excerpts facilitated by -- And performed by Andrew Carlson. There will be discussion afterwards. As 

>> ReEntry was commissioned by two Rivers theater, but it was -- who came up with the idea in 2008. He knew KJ had five brothers who served in the military. KJ asked him, who had to brother serving in the Marines, too write the script. They had a few basic rules, no politics, this was not about the why of war. Nothing is fiction area the characters and the dialogue come directly from transit -- from transcripts of theater. Only 2% of the dialogue was changed to protect anonymity war for clarification. They spent time in first interviewed service members and veterans of all conflicts. After spending time at Camp Pendleton, decided to focus on Marines serving in operation Iraqi freedom and in operation enduring freedom. The decision was to go deeper with fewer characters. 

>> one I first got back they sent me to this boxing match, Don King. And everybody cheered when they introduced me. A lot of people said thank you for your service. I had a lot of really nice things done for me, but very public. I used to be a little bit embarrassed. Me getting wounded doesn't make you a hero. It is the one gunfight I lost. Getting shot doesn't mean anything. I know they mean so well. The problem is all mine, the way on taking it. There is what I know and what I think. I will try to stick to what I know and stay away from what I think. What I know is nobody is going to tell you the truth. They never are going to tell you the way things are over there. They are only going to exhibit chest thumping. I was right there, we were leading the invasion. What I'm reading in these books is nonsense. 

>> It's always the books picked that are made into movies. Generation kill, jar head, which was not endorsed by the military . 

>> When I came to in the hospital I didn't know which way was up. We did what we usually do. We formed ourselves into a unit. We did something they don't do now, we talked about it. And we would tease each other about being stupid enough to get hits. And they would tease me mercilessly. You can imagine getting shot in the head with an RPG. You know what I mean when I say RPG? Rocket propelled grenade, it exploded on my head. I was the perfect fodder for teasing. 

>> I never want to laugh, but what I want to do is cry. Especially seeing all those boys when people in hospital. Getting through that time all of my strength along to something bigger than yourself. When you are a gunny's wife and our summary otherwise looking up to you, you have to be strong. He wasn't going to show how hard this was. And your family and friends are always around. 

>> halfway through the interview process, KJ and Emily decided to include Emily's family. Since they have different last names than Emily, KJ and Emily were able to change identifying details to protect their anonymity. 

>> which one, John R Charlie? Both of my brothers, both are Marines. You should see the looks when my liberal artist New York friends have when I tell them I have to brother Marines. The subject of war came up and I said I had two brothers in it and she gave me this look like all-knowing or something. Then she asked me where I was from. People always ask me when I find out -- ask me when I -- ask me where I'm from when they find out. We are from Portland, Oregon, and they go, oh, like that's supposed to mean something. Portland is known for promilitary attitude? That doesn't make sense, Portland is known for roses and rain. When you go drinking with John R Charlie, don't dish when you go interview John or Charlie, -- when you go to interview John or Charlie, don't go drinking with them. 

>> when they come back they tell us the usual fucking stuff, like don't drink and drive, don't kill your neighbor. What? You're going to have to form that into a question. 

>> what it I miss the most? Vagina. [LAUGHTER] 

>> be more specific. 

>> being able to take a shit and no one comes in. Anything you do for fun I missed. 

>> Why did I join? I don't know. I wanted some life experience, and not to mention we were at war. It was like reading a paper. So many people were killed and a lot of people were like, that's so sad, blah, blah, blah. And it just me off. -- it pissed me off. If you get a chance to do something and you know -- that is how it came about. 

>> lies being a Marine on some? Because we could to blow stuff up and break stuff and save lives and girls will sleep with us. 

>> I remember when he went in thinking, this is a mistake. Why would anyone want to do that? It is this huge other thing. I was really test off. John worked as a mortician. My younger brother Charlie enlisted two years ago, and I was totally pistol and John went in. There was a war. You're going to join a war on purpose? 

>> I never felt like I fit in on the outside. That's why became an officer. After I got out of the Marine Corps I worked for a funeral home. People are fucking stupid. That's why I couldn't handle it, it's not the death. Grandpa died and the whole family is screaming at each other. His worthless kids are fighting over money and the grandkids just want a nice funeral for him. I remember a fireman died and there was a huge parade for him because it was right after 9/11. He didn't die fighting a fire or rescuing anybody, he died on his day off crashing a snowmobile. I have to go to a parade of mile-long because people have a hard on for fireman? An hour or so later I have to pick up a debt for your old and no one is throwing a parade for him. 

>> John is making me read this book. It's called Gates of fire. 

>> This is the only job we are not only do I just get to be myself, but actually me being me gets the job done better. There is no other job I could do. 

>> I'm trying to read it. It is total core porno. It's about the battle of Thermopylae, the 300 Spartan warriors. Don't tell John you learned about it from that movie because he gets just -- he gets pissed o ff. 

>> John, not his real name, had returned from his second appointment and Charlie was back in his first deployment. He was home recovering from an IED explosion. Charlie's sergeant was blinded by the explosion. His best friend died in Charlie's arms. Charlie returned with some damage to his eye and shrapnel in his skin. Obviously this was not happening to everyone in the Marine Corps. The challenge became how to be honest about what is happening so close to home so as not to suggest everyone responds to the downrange or injured the same way. 

>> I go into hospitals. I visit these guys and what they are doing to these kids is all wrong. They are trying to transition these guys into civilian life. If they could just get back to their units it would be a lot messier. 

>> they take all their will and strength away. 

>> when you are wounded the thing you have to turn to is your strength of character and all of that is derived from being a Marine. I went through this thing on transition. Transitional what? why would you make yourself a civilian? We didn't put those core values in you because they only work in the battlefield. There are too many victims in the hospital. It is about everything but fixing these guys. There is a slew of entertainers. It just turns into something they don't like. I tell these guys you should feel bad, this is not normal what you have been through. Actually it is very normal. This is what we expect and trained for. You fought for something you believed in. Don't treat these guys like it's taboo. I should be treated like I'm damaged. If you want to hear some story about how I jump at loud noises or have a drinking problem, you are talking to the wrong guy. I'm sorry to tell you, and maybe the therapist and social workers don't want to believe this, but I sleep very soundly. No flashbacks, none of that. I have three combat deployments under my belt. I have killed hundreds of enemy combatants, and I didn't do that by pushing a button and watching them die on screen. I brought destruction and death. Were there bad days? Yes. You think otherwise it is just plain naïve. So I was those things didn't happen? Of course I do. Do I feel guilty? No. I trained to be a warrior, I wanted to fight. If I could fire my rifle I would go right back. 

>> It's the hallway behind -- Just two steps down. When I talk to a civilian they asked me what it's like to be married to someone in the Marine Corps. We are a Marine family and I chose this life. I lied to you when I said I never cried. It is the secret all Marine wives keep. I fix my makeup and come back out again. 

>> a sixth character is the CEO, -- the CO, the commanding officer. TheCO gave a special presentation so their children can understand what they are going through. It's nice and quiet and I'm not a fan of big bars, so this is perfect. I do these lectures because people need to know the whole piece of it. I want them to know there is actual thought, intellectual rigor. It is not Hollywood chest thumping me. We are very methodical. We are very emotionally disciplined. When I do these conferences, when I talk to these parents, you see their level of commitment. You see the hope in their eyes when you talk about what they are doing with their sons and daughters. That's when you feel the weight. Have you heard the phrase throwing in your ticket? It's from Gates of fire. I love that book. I was born 2500 years too late. I know, they all died in battle. But those who weren't there, they are dead to. We are all going to die, it is just a matter of when and why and if it counts for anything. These Spartan warriors have a very important ritual. Each warrior will take a big twig. On the end of big -- end of each he would carve his name and then tie a string to his wrist and then throw it into the basket. By throwing your ticket, you are ritual lysing your willingness to die that day. And each warrior went back into the basket and reclaimed their ticket. It's by those tickets that we are able to account for the dead. It was an act of regaining one's humanity. And these lawyers who had not shown no sign of injury or fatigue up to this point, now upon retrieval of their ticket suddenly became over, -- became overcome. Their knees were -- their knees would buckle and limbs would shake. 

>> when you get back, it's weird. A lot of people come up to you and just say thank you. Or, I'm glad you are home, or, you're not going back again. 

>> I do think you see the gratitude, and I appreciate that. There was a moment of silence for the guys who died. A dozen people around him were like, take off your hat until he finally did. I think people are expressing their gratitude and a way they know how. 

>> when people thank you, it's like they -- I'm like don't think me, do something. I know the ledge and of choose getting spit on when they came back from Vietnam, and it's a radically different environment. I would rather be thanked then spit on. 

>> How do I feel when I say thank you? You don't want to know, but you're welcome. 

>> just buy me a beer and we will call it even. I don't mind it when people think they. There are a lot of things that his me off. They are thinking the uniform, and they should think the uniform. 

>> one of the reasons I get so uncomfortable when people think me as I feel guilty. I didn't see the worse and I feel guilty about that. The only stuff I had to deal with is I had to identify a officer who shot himself in the head. Then I had a stalker, someone who it come in to tent at night and steal my underwear. One night I wake up and I see this hand sticking into my tent and I jump up and ran out of my tent and I had a weapon and I had this -- and I saw this figure and he dropped something. I thought it was a grenade. It was my brought. -- my bra. 

>> we'll come back with a certain amount of posttraumatic stress. We go into a restaurant and my wife is teasing me. Which way are the terrorists coming in? I remember catching myself sitting at a stop sign, and I don't know how long I was there. Playing this one fight over and over again. The way it should have gone. You always get the talk. Your temper is under control and you are given a form to fill out . And everybody lies on that form. They ask what did you see, and you give them the bare minimum. They ask, did it affect you? Absolutely not. If I didn't say anything it would be the end of my career. If I had seen a therapist I would not be here but right now. I never raised a hand to my wife, never raise my voice. I took care of myself. I'm very disciplined about my vitamin A. Ambien. Time for bed I take my Ambien and police of to sleep. , I would be at a table with all guys at a bar. Marines. Thank you for your service, let me buy you a shot, but not me. Because people don't stop to think I could be a Marine two. I don't know of that's because I look like a girl when I'm out. It cracked me up because it's not logical to think a girl couldn't be a Marine as well. I may cap them. My first tour I was a convoy commander. I was responsible for every life in my platoon -- in my company. I found myself in combat situations. You know what the first -- the first time somebody didn't buy me a shot -- I said, excuse me, you missed one. 

>> one of the first things I saw them I came back was the Shakira video. I fell in love with her. That video is so hot. She's just really hot. We hadn't been around too many girls. It was nice. Here watch it. And I was like, oh man. It was no -- it was so nice to see an American girl. She's not American. It was nice to see a white girl. I mean -- Look, I was just glad to be home. 

>> when John got back from Iraq he was really happy. He was the happiest I had ever seen him. He was calling me. I commented on it and said you're the happiest I've ever seen. He was like, I'm so fucking happy am not dead. And I'm in a place in life where being me makes me good at my job. And that lasted for a while. 

>> I had found my girlfriend had been cheating on me the whole time. A buddy of mine, his wife spent all of his combat -- that should happens all the time. 

>> he was jumpy and weird and dark. When he is on his motorcycle he is completely happy. He is still very sweet and the same guy. He is just a little more on edge. 

>> I haven't even bought dress blues yet. I thought about getting a Purple Heart license plate. I might. There's an announcement. There's a certificate. Nobody wants to get it. Getting it, the whole thing is not something you feel good about. How do they deprogram you from being all tensed out? Is that what you are asking me? You can't deprogram that. They say this ship. They tell us when you go home, don't get mad at your wife and kids and beat them because you are irritated. 

>> One I first got home, the skateboarders, those stupid little shit heads wearing girls pants. Have you seen these kids with these fucking pants? they were 13 and 14 in school -- and 14, skateboarding in a development that was just built. I asked them, what are you doing? They said, I heard this is a good place to escape. Don't have road wage -- Road rage, don't go fast on your motorcycle. That is what they say. Don't -- don't, I don't know, some kind of crazy shit. Do you live here? No. What are you doing? We are here skating we heard it was a good place. So you are fucking up my brand-new sidewalk? So get the fuck out. Dude, you don't have to swear at us. A punk kid. 

>> Don't go trick excessively for days and days on end. Then they say if you need help and you know it, then go ahead and talk to someone. That's all they do. There is not really a lot they can do. 

>> I'm saying if I -- if you do come back on me see that over there? I'm going to stop your heart. 

>> If they really sucked up and they know it, they will get you a counselor. They will keep an eye on you. It's not like a switch you can turn just by talking to somebody. 

>> I went from zero to homicidal in three seconds. 

>> Which is why it takes time. Which is what everyone responds to it. Either similar or different depending on certain things. 

>> What can you actually do to support the troops? quit pitching. The flag waving happens for about a month and then nothing. If I don't get my three dollars Starbucks and get to work on time I'm going to pitch and moan and cry. Everybody is self -- is so fucking spoiled. I think the majority of Americans  are pussies. Do I even care about who is dancing with the stars? What did you have for dinner yesterday? 

>> a big Mac. Then go fuck yourself. When a kid is grinding on the sidewalk, it is easier to launch them over a cliff. He is worthless to that point at me. When you pull up Marines -- he is only a few years older than that douche with a skateboard. It's kind of makes you not give a fuck about hurting that retards feelings. 

>> I go back, shit's going to be different. I'm not going to be doing should the same way -- doing shit the same way I did before. There are all these rules. If I go back over there, I'm going to kill somebody. I'm going to get the job done. Liz doesn't like it when I say stuff like that. And going fast on my motorcycle, she says I'm living like I'm already dead. I would feel much better. Seriously if I had a gun I would feel really better. I would be able to protect myself if something happened. 

>> everything you people get excited about is fucking pointless. Recycling? Go anywhere else on earth and there are so much ship turning in the streets. So much crab everywhere. The smoke it generates, I'm so glad I recycled that milk bottle. It's pointless. If you are so bored with yourself that you can get excited about recycling, then you need to get a hobby. If one person recycling some soda cans makes about as much sense as a transverse 

>> trying to shoot on a napkin -- as a Koran a source -- as a t yrannasaurus rex taking a shit on a napkin. We should turn everything the class and rebuild it in our own fashion. I'm glad I'm not being shot at, but at the same time I'm upset I don't have anyone to shoot. I do wish I had a relationship, a girlfriend. But how do we married these two extremes echo back in the day all women wanted to be were it clad eater. Try taking a gladiator to dinner. You are trading a certain way to do certain things and then you're supposed to turn that off ? 

>> have you seen their tattoos? This is a morning band. This is Charlie's. This is on one arm, and this is on the other. It's as brothers in arms, never forgotten. A few weeks ago Charlie had a flashback. It started with him not feeling right. He said he wasn't feeling like himself. He was angry and he couldn't control his emotions. He did go to somebody in his command. He was like, suck it up, you are a Marine. He was out in the field, he was incapacitated. They took him out and took him to medical. Whoever told him to suck it up, it makes me furious. All this tough guy, PTSD is for the seas -- is for pussies. Charlie wouldn't even go to the doctor after his eye was all fucked up. He was comparing what happened to him to it happened to his family and friends and he fell like a wuss. The third week Charlie is taken on the field, John fell apart. He said he had been drinking by himself. And he drinks. He drinks a lot. He realized how exposed he was out on his balcony, all the positions a sniper could be. He is sitting on his balcony in San Diego California and he's looking around for snipers. And he became convinced somebody was going to come into his count -- his house and kill him. He got a shotgun and pointed it at the door. Thank God his room he didn't come home. -- a roommate didn't come home. He felt the only way to stop it was to kill himself. John texted Charlie. When Charlie got there, John was drunk and he had all of his guns out and talked about how he is going to blow his head off. Charlie stayed with him until John fell asleep at when I first saw John he was a zombie. He said, thank you. There's no way I can be his psychiatrist, and I can't patronize him or tell them that or tell him everything is fine. That week and I had -- that we can host more terrified for his life than any time he was deployed. If they get hurt over there, at least it's the bad guys fault. If someday happens here, whose fault is that? I don't know what to do. What am I supposed to do? 

>> that exit is from two thirds into the play. It ends with Charlie and John in recovery. The ending is left rather ambiguous without making any big statements of war or conclusions , everybody is getting ready for the next one. When KJ interviewed the CO in 2009, Colonel Bryan McCoy, he was the commander who organized the point down at the Saddam Hussein statue. Colonel McCoy was interviewed on CNN soon after and said, we are celebrating too soon. If we are in this war for 50 years, someone has to get ready for the next one. Two River theater produced the world premiere. And then it went to New York for an off Broadway run at the Baltimore center stage. It continued to have life at theaters across the country. During the New York run, William Nash, a captain at the Navy and a psychiatrist running Marine Corps and Navy operations stress control, invited the company. After the presentation the first person to speak was Colonel Jones, who said we could use this play to talk about the issues we are facing. That led to several tours. Alpha, which would go into theaters, a bravo, which involved two computers ready to plug in and play and could be done in any room that had PowerPoint capability and took half an hour, and a Charlie, which was simply five factors, a narrator, which we took to bases and V.A. hospitals. American workers worked directly with command and the play was required attendance for troops. They didn't know they were seeing a play, all they knew is they were being ordered to attend post-appointment resiliency training. Americans have done 50 performances on bases and hospitals, including Campell 10 -- Camp Pendleton. When base first presentation began -- but an important lesson was learned the hard way. Many of the drill instructors had served in multiple combat deployments, and all GIs were ordered to attend ReEntry performance. It was later reported that a DI was triggered by the material and wreaked havoc on his troops. D eyes -- DI's usually wreak havoc, but this was upset enough to be noted. KJ introduces the play, all he says we are not suggesting with this material that this is everyone's experience, this is just reflective of those we interviewed. He lets them know chaplains and mental health workers are standing by and if they need to they are welcome to step out at any time and chat with someone. After the presentation a commanding officer gets up and shares their personal response to lead by example. That is followed by a Townhall type discussion where KJ asks, based on your experiences, what are characters you identified with? And if I were to write a ReEntry part two, what else should go in? Last, mental health meets the group and breakout sessions. KJ also let the audience is no that she and the actress will be around after if they want to talk to them in private. This usually leads to many private and intimate personal chats. KJ was commissioned to adapt the play to Army experiences. Two years ago the Navy commissioned KJ to develop an adaptation for sailors. Here is an excerpt from the Navy script, which has been performed at Navy bases in California and Virginia. 

>> When someone says, thank you for your service, I say, thank you and move on. The way we respond is personal. Everybody is different. The way I look at it, I don't know who it is. They may be a combat veteran themselves. All I know is they are thankful. 

>> My first appointment -- two things -- strike that, three things. As a female in a predominantly male career field you have to overcome a lot of stigma. They think you are there for a Friday night date or to get married, but you're lazy and need to be caught up. One time I'm carrying this very heavy panel stuff with another person. Everybody is expecting me to drop it. But it was the guy. He dropped his end. He got ribbed big time. I had bruises up and down the back my legs, but it was worth it. Second thing about my first appointment, I grew up in a tiny town in Minnesota and I basically have never been anywhere. So you are into this culture you barely know. Coming back from wind claimant when you are single, you don't have a husband or wife, and my family was military so they couldn't understand what I was doing. It is pretty isolating. One guy in my unit was Africa -- was from Africa. Luckily we had someone in there make it sure he wasn't too isolated. 

>> you have to reintegrate yourself into the world. Not everything is painted gray, not everyone wears the same clothes. There are colors like red,, and believeth test. You have to readjust you find to being in the real world. Don't go to Bush Gardens or Disney World the day after you get back. You will have an awful time. My son, I didn't know him until I got back. She was born in February and I was straight out see. -- he was born in February and I was straight out to sea. Military spouses have to be independent. She pretty much runs the whole house, pays the bills, handles the money. She goes tony, this is how much we can spend this month. I go, sounds good. That's pretty much it. 

>> The first appointment, my wife was an hour late when I was getting home, and I didn't know where I lived. At least I know I can sleep on the ship. If she doesn't come get me, there is no going home. We were in Japan, we didn't have a place to live. In the meantime she buys a car, she gets an apartment in Japan, she purchases $6,000 worth of furniture. I say whose furniture is that? That's ours. When I was on how pens, we were in Japan for 25 months. On the enterprise owes away for 27 months. That doesn't include all the field exercises and first year of military -- she was in one place and I was another. I saw her maybe four weeks. I chuckle at the people in Hollywood who are saying it's irreconcilable differences, he lives in New York and I live in L.A. You're making millions, flight cost the country for a weekend. I don't get that luxury. I would love to tell you I have done it all right. Then I would be lying and have to go to confession. I write letters. Break out a piece of paper, pen, put it down. Last month was an eight-month deployment. I took a stack of cards with me. Her birthday is in September. I knew how long it would take for the mail to get there, so I would have to back up three weeks to a month. I would number them, because you never knew when a letter was going to get there or where. I tried to send care packages home, whatever I could find. An enterprise had. My son Ward every day for the first week. -- war it every day for the first week. 

>> we were having wine and talking about stories of our husbands and their reactions when they got home. This was a close group net of that a close-knit group of wives -- this was a close-knit group of wives. I said -- I have very cold feet when I sleep, and my husband is warm and soft. So I went my toes in his calves. And he freaked. They will come up out of a dead sleep and someone was touching him. He throws the covers up and comes right up ready for action. This group says that has happened to me. This one girl was relieved she didn't -- she was the only person -- was relieved she wasn't the only person who had a story like that. Maybe some of it from fleet and family and focus paid everybody had a story to tell and everybody else was like, yup. The stories were so common but the wives weren't telling them among themselves because we don't the other wives to think he's creepy, even though we are all in the same boat. 

>> something most civilians don't know is -- with combat it can be intense from 20 minutes to two hours. On disaster relief it is pretty stressful most of the time. You are doing things from picking up body parts, going to a flood sewn and recovering people's lives and personal possessions. Knowing that person's life is never going to be the same. Those images don't go away. The first week back from a disaster relief deployment, you have to adjust to the fact you are in a different world. If gas prices go up $.10, things are really bad. Not a world where people can't get water they don't walk 10 miles. It's natural to feel guilty and grateful at the same time. Some of the more difficult ones are when you go to a disaster site and you are not allowed to help as much as you can. You have to understand when you are young and your new, you are not the one making the decisions. There are a lot of political choices you can't control, following orders and doing the best you can. A lot of expeditionary soldiers were deployed helping other people. The absolute paradox and irony of being out there and handing out food to people who are having a hard time in life and knowing that your family may be in trouble, this is something that takes a long time to get over. Coming home, it takes a while. It is not uncommon to come back and feel like everybody has an agenda. When you see the worst of people, butchering women and children because they don't worship the right God or they wanted to go to school, sometimes you project that onto humanity itself. That's part of it, learning to trust society again after seeing the worst for a while. But you know, my wife, my kids, I want them to understand some of the things I've done, but I don't want them to experience the hardships. But to step off and look onto a cloudless night and you see the stars. You see the Milky Way, like someone took a piece of gold and stretched it from horizon to horizon. The fact I am out there and looking at a dolphin in the eye, I share that. 

>> I've learned be happy with much and learned to be happy with little. When you sit on a flight deck or sitting at a desk, what you have to realize your doing is what you are doing. You may not see the results but you may. I loathe being on a ship when -- Ships are meant to be at sea. You try to go home at night but your hours are just as long. It's never a pleasant time. I think there is a difference between happiness and joy. Happiness, a lot of times people base it on outside things. I am happy I have a new car or am going home. That lasts until you get a scratch on the new car or have a fight with your spouse. I think I am joyful, which comes from the inside. Because there have been times when I'm not happy per se. I am not happy when my mom fell and broke her hip and I was on deployment and could be there with her when she passed. I think a lot of people get wrapped up in pursuing happiness and they miss joy. I may not be as happy as some people, but I feel a greater sense of joy than most milling I have done something to make a difference. 

>> A big part of American records focus when it comes back to reentry is to pass the torch to others doing similar work. Work that serves as a flexion for the community and represents and as a bridge between community and others. K.J. has asked me to say a little bit about my own work. I would like to discuss two challenges I believe we as an artist community should consider in our interactions with military populations, whether active duty or veterans. The first challenge I mentioned yesterday and read about is we need to re-examine our representations of military on stage. In the last decade, most of the works about veterans have focused on mental and psychological issues after returning from overseas deployments. I want to recognize when veterans begin returning from Afghanistan and Iraq, these discussions were essential. In light of the suicide rate, they are still very important. But as I mentioned in the article, the oversaturation of PTSD stories can have a negative effect on the ability of veterans to integrate into civil society. The homogenized image of a PTSD soldier is a signifier for any soldier returning from deployment. This is real-world consequences. Girl forulf war era 2 soldiers are less likely to find employment than their counterparts. This is only because the Obama administration placed a high priority on hiring veterans in public service positions. The number one reason why most private employers cite for about hiring gulf war era 2 veterans is pts. They are afraid they will have a flashback in the workplace. I am asking for us to reframe the way we witness stories of veterans on stage. As a community of artists, we need to stop thinking about veterans as people we help and begin to think about them as people with so much to contribute. In some places, as yesterday's discussion demonstrated, this is already starting to happen. This leads me to my second challenge. The gulf between communities and military communities -- between civilian and military communities is in my view unacceptably wide and continues to grow. Let me be very clear. This condition is not only harmful to reintegration efforts but more broadly, it is dangerous to our society. This leaves our veterans isolated and opens our military up to misuse by those in power. Toward that end, I've used my position as a local coordinator in Austin to focus on opening the conversation between veterans in the Austin area and the local civilian population. The warrior chorus is a national program out of New York and administered in New York, Los Angeles, and Austin with local chapters of veterans from each area. It uses classics as entry points for discussing the lives of the military. Over 10 weeks, we created the workshop of our own stories and recently have begun engaging local audiences with them. As local coordinator, I was given autonomy over the direction of our group. Instead of following the well-worn path of discussing trauma, I want to the participants to have more agency. I wanted them to search for moments in their military time that although seemingly mundane made an impression on their memories. I wanted them to explore the nature of military life. For example, I wrote about my last job as an active duty soldier. Another veteran wrote about her experience as a female Arabic translator. Another wrote about one day when he was part of a security detail guarding the rebuilding of a road in Iraq. By doing this, where not only disrupting the veteran -- narrative but also challenging the victim narrative that currently inform most audiences. I wanted to open it up to questions in the remaining time left. [APPLAUSE] 

>> 10 minutes? 10 minutes. 

>> We have 10 minutes for questions. We can continue to discuss on brakes and thinks. I would like to open it up. 

>> Please raise your hand and I will bring you the mic. 

>> First of all, I want to applaud the performance and what you portrayed. I am Dr. Stefanelli. We had the opportunity and pleasure of having reentry at the caregiver conference. I have to tell you it falls into what you were saying about collaboration and really getting out to the community and letting everyone embrace and understand and educate. I think as you said, I think our charge in the community is to step out of the box and partner with the arts. And thank you very much. 

>> Thank you. 

>> Anyone else? 

>> I really appreciated the story about the chaplain and for people who did not grow up on military bases, everyone goes to chapel and it plays a critical role. The chaplain is a moral leader for everyone there. It was the first time it was brought up so I wanted to say much I appreciate tod it. 

>> So much of the power of the work is fostering an expanded social dialogue. I wonder if you have thought about putting this workout in other community scenarios, whether workplaces, schools, an Academy. How do you think that would work? Is there a way to shift the perspective of veterans from victim to contributor? I think that is an enormously important opportunity. 

>> I cannot speak for K.J. This is her work. I know at this point, she has backed away from it a little bit and taken a step back. What I really appreciate about the way they set this up is that the focus is so much on the agency of the story from the individual. The massive volume of areas that it looks at, right? It is not just about trauma. It is not just about the soldier. It is also about the soldier's family and all these things weaving in and out of the daily lives of the veterans and families. I can say personally, my research -- as a mentioned yesterday, I am working on my PhD. My research is looking at the way theater is being used by displaced Syrians in Jordan. I think this kind of model is one of the models that in my opinion is missing from the current, I want to say curriculum, because that is what international organizations use when they talk about using theater in refugee spaces. It is missing from the current curriculum. The stories coming out right now are primarily being driven by the international organizations. Although they say they are giving a lot of agency, the agency is very clamped down and ultimately is up to -- subject to the approval of the international organization. I would love to see work like this happen in that realm personally. 

>> Thank you for your reading. I say that partly because last night having seen the show fully produced, there's something about the setup that is so intimate, confronting, amazing. I don't know if it is my second time seeing it, but one thing in particular I noticed is we come to love each of you. And we love the words. I will speak for myself. Then I stopped loving the words. You make me think through the dilemma, especially when you start with I don't agree with this. Yes, I am laughing, but I do not want this. And then I'm stuck with, what do I do about that? It is like I'm in the living room with you trying to work that through. I have not had that experience before. It is really challenging to be in the midst of this. Yeah. 

>> So, I wanted to ask about your story collection process and how you went about collecting the stories and getting the permissions in terms of the verbatim stories. The stories are all compelling and familiar. And really wonderfully told. What is the process you use for collecting the stories? 

>> As I mentioned, this is K.J. 's work. We are presenting it for K.J. because she could not be here today. It is work that really needed to be out there, so I cannot speak personally to her collection method. 

>> [INDISCERNIBLE] 

>> Reentry was created through interviews. When you see the full production, you basically see the bars. You see the C.O. giving his speech. And all of those things are what K.J. and Emily did in person. And by making the commitment to use them verbatim, she took them back to make sure this was the image they were willing to have portrayed. As Bart said, they had to wait until much later to use some of the names. The fact that they came back later and said yes, now it is possible to use my name, speaks to the veracity of the process and commitment they made to telling a story that was -- that continues. It continues even though it has changed service. It has changed individuals. But the process is the same. It is their story. It is their words. It is not Emily and K.J. trying to put their spin on those words. In fact, that is part of why it was not political. It is their willingness to give over to that story. 

>> Can I say something in response to that as well? I am not sure what the full production looked like because I never got to see the full production. It did not come to my base. But in this space with the PowerPoint behind it and knowing the amount of clarity with the words and only 2% changing, it feels very much to me like a very closely aligned performance is not in the style of collection. The idea and focus at heart reading of witnessing to the stories as opposed to representing the stories. And that was part of what drew me when I started delving into the work. 

>> I'm going to go here and then to Britney and then we are going to wrap it up. 

>> Margaret Lawrence from Dartmouth College. We were fortunate to be part of the New England tour as a fully staged performance. Until then, our relationship with our community's veterans had been small. In fact, we have one of the country's largest PTSD research centers through the medical school. This was a moment where not only were we able to have a presence there, but the entire medical faculty came to meet K.J. on their turf. It was quite powerful. I am intrigued, Andrew, by your own sense right now of this narrative meeting to not replace the PTS story but evolve to the next stage. It links to something we are learning. Maybe we can talk more in the roundtable about this. But about our community's veterans, they really are willing to participate and engage with us but they do not want us to be giving them things because they are trained in a culture of service. We are now grappling with, what use can they be back to us? We do not even know how to speak that language. Maybe we can talk more about that later. 

>> yeah. 

>> Thank you so much for bringing this to us today. It was incredible to see this amazing work. It is so honest and relevant to what is happening. I am on a resiliency team for suicide prevention, intervention with the National Guard. We have almost 7000 soldiers we respond to. We do take this as a model. It is so great it is being used elsewhere and across the country and around the world. I really think this is a great model to use. We will go to veterans and ask them for their stories. I have gone to every unit in the state and done this. It elicits these incredible responses, but also it brings back flashbacks for them. We will have therapists and psychiatrists outside the room that go into the same thing. I have received resiliency training. This is what they teach us to do. This is something growing and becoming more used widely across the country. We are receiving training from civilian organizations, which is where the idea came from. Great concept. So, it is a great circle to be learning from. Military teaching civilians and civilian's teaching military. We are using that cyclical teaching thing. It is great to know it is happening elsewhere, too, and it is growing. 

>> Unfortunately, we are going to wrap it up. Let's give another round of applause to them. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. [APPLAUSE] 

>> As you all know, we are just at the start of our day so these conversations will continue. We are 15 minutes behind, which is an intentional choice, so we are now moving the break from -- right now it is 10:45. Please be back in his room at 11:00. We will switch the room over. Please grab your things and make it to the lobby as quickly as possible. Thank you so much. 

>> OK, welcome back. Thank you for making that break a real 15 minutes. We are going to get started with her inner circle and outer circle discussion. Just a reminder for folks who were not here yesterday, the way this works is we have 45 minutes of discussion at the center search and -- at this inner discussion. It the ones in the outer discussion -- the ones in the outer circle are listening. Then we kick it off with a full 45 minutes of full discussion. This panel will go until 12:30 until 12:15 and off we go. 

>> Hello. I will remind you that we are talking to each other even though it is weird to talk to each other with a microphone. [LAUGHTER] And there is a rumor that I have struck fears in the hearts of panelists everywhere by my approach of yesterday's timing view. I think that is a good thing. [LAUGHTER] So, what I would love to do to start is we have a really eclectic panel in terms of people coming from really different types of places versus yesterday's panel where people were coming from a particular artistic perspective. But I would like to do was have you start by going around and introducing yourself. I would like you to keep the introduction to 90 seconds and really talk about what brings you to the table today. If you could take the key things . At 90 seconds, you will see me pick up my microphone and start interrupt you. OK. [LAUGHTER] But I will try to do it with great gentleness. So, if anybody wants to start and then we will make our way around. Anyone feel ready to do an introduction? Thank you so much. 

>> hello. I was the person Carl was speaking of. Carl was scaring me. [LAUGHTER] I am Patricia Jones, or Dr. Patricia Jones. I am a part of the creative arts integration project and I am at a veteran at the table serving of that magnitude. 

>> you have a lot more time. It great, great. [LAUGHTER] 

>> let's send it around. 

>> I have the benefit of introducing myself earlier. I will share some things of why I am on this panel. It gets into --I am actually happy and comfortable with saying I am not an artist. I started out learning about the arts. I have a background in the arts, but I have been very centered and a very happy in the role of administrator and really lately advocate. this is -- this is a common dating part of my career as an administrator is really working in this field with the veterans and with the veteran artists and artisan everybody across the continuum. for the record, I am marete waster. If 

>> thank you. 

>> I am Madison Cario. I am many things. Let's talk about my job. What pays the bills right now, I am the director of the office of the arts at the Georgia Institute of technology. It is a wonderful opportunity for me because I get to be an artist a curator, and a science geek. I have a background in environmental science and the -- in electrical engineering from the Marine Corps that I get to come out about. [LAUGHTER] So many things to come out about. I will be honest, I am full and super nervous. in this room in the last 24 hours, I have brought even more pieces of myself together. This is crazy. just when I think I know how to be the administrator and a veteran and a scientist, I do not think until this morning, I really had a clue how deeply moved I am. my cells are vibrating and I am terrified. there are words I cannot publish, but I will say thank you. [LAUGHTER] 

>> Hi, everyone. Maurice couldcau. El would we are trying to do is to teach veterans how to work in technical theater. We are working in three sites right now and the foresight we are hoping to get up in August. One is Providence -- Brown Providence community libraries in North Carolina with their beauty theater -- with their community theater. We open up our third site last week in San Diego with the La Jolla Playhouse. And the final pilot site, we will get that up this fall semester. That is what we are doing. I was in the Marines as an artillery man. Also a playwright. 

>> I am Arctic wrote, executive -- I am mark degraot. I researched the expense of post 9/11 veterans as they transitioned as a human life event. I had an amazing life experience witnessing the performance -- and working with veterans and it became personal to me and I discover the power of art as an appropriate platform. And also a prominent platform for journalists, historians, -- this is one of the most important parts of my work. I've been involved in five veterans arts projects in various roles. I am learning every day. This has been an important community for me. I feel very connected to this community. I am also scared and nervous. This is a very powerful collection of people and talent. And I feel really privileged to be here, but I am on edge. [LAUGHTER] 

>> good morning. My name is the motor of the hot -- my name is Umoja  Abdul and I may be a non-veteran and I talked to a guy the other day and said I was a Vietnam veteran and he said, I thought all of you all were dead. [LAUGHTER] So I have a real important reason -- [LAUGHTER] -- to be around this table. [LAUGHTER] I have a son that is a -- a son who is in the Navy. I have a seven law -- I have a son in law in the Army. And I have three grandsons that were in the service. I have one now who is playing with an Army Jazz band. He is a drama and very good. And my oldest grandson just told me two or three weeks ago, maybe longer, that he and his wife are expecting the 22nd of this month. So, when I talked last night about us really looking at how we can effectively make a change and not have all of the stores about war, I believe the Pentagon probably needs like this, and they have no more power than we do. we can stop this. 

>> so, it seems like everyone is using their pr voice, so I will as well. [LAUGHTER] My name is Sam Pressler. I cannot do that. [LAUGHTER] I listen to it every morning. You should, too. [LAUGHTER] My name is Sam Pressler and I am the founder and Executive Director of the armed services arts partnership but Army people, not the alcohol and substance abuse program. And also a comedy boot camp. I am very humbled to be at this table. when I was in college, I was looking forward to being at this table. I started this program when I was a sophomore and was very fortunate to get a few fellowship fundings to work on it full-time. I have no background in the arts except for performing comedy when I was in high school. did not serve in the military. My grandparents did. wow. [LAUGHTER] So what ASAP does, we help veterans reenter great through the community through the arts. our approach include entry-level classes, which for veterans are about seven to 10 weeks in length and culminate in public performances. we also provide long-term alumni support through workshops, etc. 

>> thank you. Good morning. My name is Nolen Bivens. I come to you this morning by way of 32 years of active military service and I retired back in 2008. IMF the table by virtue of a relationship with Bob Lynch of America's for the arts. I am here primarily because of the strong, compassionate feeling I have about the subject we are talking about this morning, which is healing. I think healing happens within communities. I wish I could've quoted that, but that comes from another book I have read. But it resonated with me and I think it is a collector that allows me to think about this work of bridging military and our communities with that one notion that healing occurs in the community, and it is not just the physical, mental, social aspect, but the whole concept of healing. what I spend my time these days doing outside of running a business is passionately advocating to all of those I can influence with this notion of how art can contribute tremendously to the benefit of our families as well. I think the family is a key component. Thank you so very much. 

>> thank you for that. That was great. I will turn my timer off now. I like to get everybody's voice in the room to start, which is great. Thank you. You have eclectic backgrounds, but you are all referencing the power of art. some of you with experience in the arts and some of you coming from the outside. I just wonder if you could reflect personally because I feel in a way this conversation has gone fast over the course of this one day and morning we had been together. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about -- to use Arthur's words, the power of the art. even if you wanted to talk anecdotally or your direct experience, I would like to put that into the center of the table. 

>> OK. So Patricia again. For me personally, that is what I will bring into this to answer your question. I am a veteran and in -- after I got out, I went to graduate school. after a while, I ended up in Knoxville, Tennessee working on my doctorate. and I had a class where a group of local artists, or activists came into the space it introduced what they were doing, and for the class assignment, I was to go to do some work with one of these groups. it just so happens that carbon back theater were present and they were discussing the piece speed. as I sat there as a veteran at that time, no one knew I was a veteran. I did not identify as a veteran. I knew I had to work with them. after I heard them describe that piece from last night, I had to work with them. and so, I committed to doing that. and Linda invited me as my assignment to participate in a story circle. and I do not even think that Linda was aware of it, but after I participate in that story circle, that was the first time I ever told my story. ever. no one knew my story. the only one person who knew my story was my professor, who read the paper that I wrote. I share my story with this group. the mojo was present -- umoja was present and it was received in a powerful way. I was in a place where I -- my story had been taken from me. my narrative had been taken from me. I was robbed of my story and my narrative. and I was just existing and not living because I was in fear. I was on the brink where life for me, it was almost over. but I came into that space. I told that story of me suffering from PTS, or PTSD, and how I ended up becoming a felon because of an act that was committed that I did not have a title for and did not know how to name until several positions within the V.A. told me that it was PTSD. I told them they were crazy because I was not a Vietnam vet. [LAUGHTER] This was not real, you know? I am not an old, you know. so, I also came to discover, you know, I experienced military sexual traumas as well. and I know that is not a lived experience for every female or male in the military, but it happened to me. That was the first time in that circle I was able to say that come and after I left that space, my life changed, and that is why I am here. it took, and I don't even know how many years later, a lot of years later -- Linda and Andrea and others who were in that circle, I was able to share with them that story and the impact it had on me being able to share that with them. the carbon  not stop there. they invited me to take my story and change it into a digital story, but I had to do it myself. I had to go through the trainers program, so I wrote my story and created a video, three minutes, with images and everything about my story. and then I went and started pursuing that even deeper, and I started to do that with story center as well with Jill Lambert. now I am a digital storyteller and facilitator, but I am the owner of my story, and that is what I want to help others do. be it veterans are not because we are human and what we experience our human issues. 

>> thank you so much. 

>>Go ahead. 

>> I would add about the power of the art. There are internal and external powers. I really think it is very powerful and that creative class is intermixed with the warrior class. I think the real audience is our nonveterans. that is the majority of people. I mention this the other day -- that they are not exposed to these stories and the reality of those that voluntarily serve in uniform. not as heroes and not as victims, as a life choice. I think it is very powerful for me in my work to use the creative work of you here towards having a voice to the civilian audience. we have heard a lot how reinforcing and third cutie get is for those who have served -- how reinforcing and therapeutic to those who have served. that is important. largely, it is the external audience. it is kind of interesting that most people who go into the military of the warrior class are very disconnected from the arts world. it is hard to bring them on the campus 17 miles from an Army base with free tickets and all kinds of incentives to bring them into a theater. it should not be that way, but once they do, this becomes a part of their lives. my last comment would be as I hope to all of this work, we are doing social work and art as a catalyst for this. there is a value of ringing the arts into the lives of our military veterans. that is missing. they get entertainment and they get entertained, but they do not get art. and I think they deserved that and I am a veteran I felt the power in my own life of art. that is a gift intrinsic to them in that committee does not get art. 

>> so, I will come at this probably from the vso approach. The first piece is thinking about accessibility. Particularly in the veteran service space, you typically see the newer type of the Esso organizations -- vso organizations are not that diverse. It is post-9/11 veterans, and sometimes more bias towards officers. We found through our program is you get an incredible diversity through this program. We haven't anyone writing group in Hampton Roads and D.C. someone just out of service, and World War II veterans because the nice thing about writing, it is accessible. you seem really diverse range of ages. I think racially, this is something that has surprised me personally is, you know, right now, over 50% of the people participating in our programs are people of color. when you compare that to the overall veterans population, 82% are Caucasian. we are finding that the arts are breeding a lot of the more underrepresented veterans. finally, less than 10% of veterans are women, yet 40% participating in a program are women. considering we do stand up comic which is very male-dominated, we're finding that our classes are usually 40% to 50% women. accessibility piece is important. the second piece is the diversity of what can come from the arts. for us as art educators, we are not guiding toward the therapeutic outcome. we are not qualified to do that, but what could come from that if you give people an opportunity to have a community and express yourself, that can create a renewed sense of purpose and expansion of that identity beyond just being defined by what happened in the past, but what you are contributing moving forward. and for some healing benefits. I think the other piece is to what Arthur says is getting better as a platform and having them tell their story to an audience of civilians or people less connected. that boosts awareness and understanding. and it also boosts more engagement bringing communities closer together. just the diversity of what can come from this is really important. 

>> that is great. Sam, I want to add to that thinking of joy in invitation and taking sensibility to invitation. What I found with my work at Georgia Tech is this notion of I used to do that, I played piano, but that was before, fill in the blank, before I got back. And so, just to conversation, lunch, lesson learned from lunch yesterday, lunch is a great way to start. You start by being in a room. What I found whether it is engineers or engineers were also veterans, we will start there and then would you do? and I am embarrassed to tell them. I say I am also the director of the office of the arts, and they said, you have an agenda. [LAUGHTER] And we let that lie. Here is my card and they are like, oh, did know we had arts. They we have this conversation and they say what you do? And I say dance, theater. and they say, I used to. Well I used to play trumpet. and I think we have those so if you want to play the horn again, you can. We just found a lot of joy in community just through the practice of what people used to do, or I never thought about writing, but I have been journaling all the time. am I allowed to come myself an artist? language, equity, and welcoming everyone into the room has been a really important part of the practice both at the Georgia Institute of technology and as a veteran as I keep going back-and-forth between those two things. 

>> just answer the question. I point to answer it as a veteran that in that up in the writing space and one who facilitates those two spaces. In 2008, I was -- I needed something to do. I ended up at a writing workshop at New York University. But they have been doing since 20 oh eight and 20 oh nine is creating a space for veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan to get together and write poetry and fiction. I showed up and they were teaching poetry. I thought that was a waste of my time. [LAUGHTER] It was not useful to me, the goal was to be a federal police officer, what do I need to know how to write a song for? But I found a community of people and made friends, some of these folks, right? I made friends and that is why I kept going back. then I realized with the exception of the person I was working with cash shamus was a Marine -- I was working with seamus and he was a Marine. Beginning into a room like that in learning how to process the war through poetry was life-changing and I ended up not being a police officer, obviously. that would've been a fine choice, but you know, I took a different route. now, we are able to facilitate the source of workshops cross-country. and we invite folks into a theater and give them access, but the first thing we do is, and I have been saying this to the people who facilitate the workshops is what we are doing is building community. these folks have now served together, different branches, different eras, but we are facilitating community bringing people in a room. We facilitate a space where people can build community and make friends, right? can we take them to the theater so they get to see the shows that they want to. and we teach them a skill. at the end of the workshop, the goal is to be able to present at work on a face publicly if they want to and invite their friends people from the community. The first and most important things building the community. That is what I learned and I learned that last year and a real way we did our first workshop in San Diego because that is what I saw. Anything else that comes out of it is OK, but it is really community. 

>> so, I always feel of myself in this space as a learner. and a great joy of being in this space since only about 2011 is that every single day, I learned something new that changes the way I not only think about this work, changes the way I do this Changing the way I do this work. I want to do a town -- a timeline of how transformational this has been. We were invited into a dialogue. It was happening at Walter Reed international medical center. The impetus was the extreme number of wounded returning back from Iraq and Afghanistan. But serious physical and psychological injuries. The arts had a long history of being part of -- more theaters being part of the military and coming from a civilian population and everything that is said about the great tragedy to bridge this civilian gap. It manifests -- it manifests in serious ways. When we first had this dialogue we had arts and healing for wounded warriors. They were able to bring in a veteran population together with the creative class and healing professionals. What we learned from that dialogue is if you want to help the wounded warrior, you don't stop there. You have to look at the circle of caregivers. Then we started looking at the continuum of the arts. The helium -- the healing continuum is one part of the larger ecosystem that needs to be thrust together and knees to be looked at as the ultimate holistic system. What I started to learn is creative arts therapists, those working in art and music therapy , we are going to hear a lot more about that. They have not necessarily been to this dish been new to this environment but they are part of a closed system that doesn't necessarily allow their work and benefits to be as visible as we have the luxury of being on the nonprofit side. When you look at the manifestations of that, there is a handful's of creative arts therapists working in V.A.'s. And the expression of that, I was introduced by a very long serving service organization, largest volunteer Association, women who had been supporting arts in our medical facilities for a very long time. The first time I went to the festival is the culmination of a lot of work that happens. A lot of work. We were able to tour the exhibit and see the performances. What I was struck by, this was probably 2012 through 2013, each and every one of the service members -- it was completely intergenerational. From Vietnam to Gulf War, whoever was part of this larger system. The Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts sadly, but also positively initiated a different kind of conversation that allows us into an intergenerational space. When I talked with every single one they may have started out that art is therapeutic when they were in front of their artwork describing what they were doing, they were talking as artists. Further proving that along the continuum, patient artist, there is a gallery in my local arts district. I'm going to be in a show or I'm going to be doing this. We fast forwarding number of years. I start to meet all the fabulous veteran artists out there. I learned from people where -- it's a fallacy to say you have to bring arts to service members and veterans. When we had the draft, artists were drafted. You return to what you do. When people return, it's a fallacy that the arts are only about therapy and therapeutic and educational. I wholly endorse the brilliance of we need those veteran voices and experience, because we have a populace that is largely clueless and uneducated. We need the voices about engagement. We also need to know for our own creative industry -- and I'll credit this quotes to a former state poet laureate in Carolina who made veteran issues his project. In his mind the stories coming out from veterans are some of the most significant historical underpinnings about what is going to be our cultural voice. We need to look at how we elevate those voices and support those voices. 

>> going to hand you this here. 

>> a great comment. People who did get drafted were many things. As I think about the art and all the other facets of human life and how we can get difference and make a change, two words that come to me is change agent. I think that's what we should see our self as. What I'm trained to work on is to be that change that you want everything else to be. That's where it really happens. I've seen over the years how that happens, how it works. We talk about how we can actually make a change. When we go home, it's like art -- people thinks little and less of you. If you don't express yourself, your true self -- my granddaddy used to say it's easy to be black in a black community. But it's not quite easy when you are around other people. They are saying names and you have to say that ain't cool. They may fire you or do whatever. I've want us from now on to say what ain't cool from people who need to hear it. That's a change agent. And it Vietnam -- I'm in Vietnam sitting around, and all the guys, Latinos, and he and Americans from Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, we're sitting around and saying this is crazy. What are we doing in Vietnam? One said no Vietnamese has ever called me nigger. This story is very seldom told. You knew that can state kids were getting killed because of Vietnam. Even in Vietnam, people driving tanks and shooting planes and M-16s and whatever, they were saying this is crazy. We united in Vietnam. Look at the movie called Sir, yes sir, or knows Sir. They were saying the same thing they were same to everywhere. He may turn that tank around. And when he's driving a B-52 and said this is crazy, he turns that plan around. I used to wear an Afro. You need a certain kind of hairstyle in the Air Force. I had my family send me some tuxedos, real thick grease. I had my hair down and all the rest. Every night when I would go -- I was in the Air Force as a security policemen. They were always saying something about my hair. Could you please cut your hair? this is in Vietnam. I came in one morning -- I asked him, do you know how to shave heads. He said yes I do. I said I wanted to shave my head. He said what? I said if I can't wear my hair the way they want to wear my hair, I'm not going to have any here at new -- at all. When we came to work that night, there were 545 people. Change agents, I'm talking about being a change agent. That's what I'm talking about. They all shaved their heads. About four or five guys didn't shave their heads. The next day we have orders to be separated. The next day they sent me to -- They separated us. I'm just saying that using the arts is one thing. But use your life. If you don't like what is going on, change it. But don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to say it in front of other people who may think something is wrong with you because there something wrong with them. Something wrong with all of us. I got on the bus the other day. Turn 70 the 10th of February. This guy said to me, European American young guy, he said we the same. I said we sure are. He said people are scared of you. I said why? He said, because you're different. I said everybody on this bus is different. Nobody on this bus is the same. We're different, but let's just -- let's make our differences -- 

>> Nolan, I want to let you jump in because we are only to get -- only going to get to one question. It was a really good question. 

>> Thanks so much. I think we see the power of it. I feel obligated to make you know -- I consider myself being exceptionally blessed. I have to think you for your service. I feel a special commitment to say that to you, whatever may resonate with you. It leads to the power of the arts. It creates a pathway for experience between the two communities. And experience is the core of what I realize that -- I didn't take it into my day to day existence as a soldier. When I changed commanders the Sergeant major Cayman. An artist in my community, in my command had decided to -- I was the most home person in the world, I was totally embarrassed. Artists are in the military. I later became Chief of Staff. The boss came in and says I want to create a band. It was a joint organization. We put a call out saying we are creating a band, we want to use this as a tool. Two or three of them had guitars they didn't know they had. Three months later we were touring. It really was a huge experience. The power of the arts creates a pathway for experience within communities. I think that is important with military communities today. Many heard me say I think there is more similarity than there is disparity. I would ask you to think about this for a moment. What is the difference between Sandy Hook, the battle for Fallujah, and the crisis we are experiencing with this police force in our community? What's the difference and what commonality on that? I think the fact that there is trauma across all of that spectrum means that what military service members are experiencing are similar to what our great schoolkids are -- our great schoolkids -- our grade school kids are experiencing. There is a huge connection in my mind right now. It comes back to this notion that powerful arts creates this pathway for experience versus star communicating, sharing those experiences, one should be on the stand of communication -- should be kept on the stand. One of the powerful thoughts that came to my mind was a group was talking and someone said this. I think it is this idea that whatever you do as an artist or whatever we try to do as a community of artists, at the time you are creating -- they are always creating. I understand that now more than ever. Would you be intentional about collaborating with the military? Make collaboration and intentional part of your creativity. That is when you are going to draw that experience very early on that the trace itself -- that portrays itself. 

>> this is great. Just a couple of things to say. It is interesting that in some ways this gathering is premised a bit on the notion of divide. There are differences in these communities and we are trying to bridge that. This conversation up tens that notion about the real connection that exists and it is elevating those connections versus starting the divide. I feel that is really great. You and this on an important point about the way we do this work well, how do we do it well together? That feels like where this conversation is heading. True for every single person that sits in the room, the fundamental need to be the voice of our own story. I put those things out there. What we are going to do is shift gears. We are going to stop talking amongst ourselves with microphones and you will go back to your seats and we will open us up to a broader conversation. Think you much for that. [APPLAUSE] The way we are going to do this is we are going to have to microphones. I'm going to try to help our great tech person today. I will have you in a one to order and we will use two microphones. If Teedo people could raise their hands at a time. There is one and who wants to meet a comment after? 

>> Thank you panel for kind of talking about the importance of military in the arts. One of the things I have been doing as I have been involved in this work is -- I'm not a very, the same -- this is clear to you, but I made a commitment that when I got in front of prominent individuals, I would challenge them specifically with the question surrounding art in the military. I'm happy to report that officers like General Petraeus and in national security adviser had the opportunity to bend the ear of, when you challenged with anecdotes about the election of art in the military, everyone has one. My favorite one is former collet aunt of the military. He was tasked with going into has below -- into Hezbollah. He was in the Pentagon and going around and touting cultural diplomacy. His 

>> who is next up? 

>> I'm going to speak sitting down. I kind of want to respond back about how does the Laurier community and the artistic community work? In my example -- there are some of us that are intermediaries. We were veterans and had cultural capital. We have generals and sergeant majors we can talk to every day. Yet through these forums and the work we do, we also start to build some of that. One thing about cultural capital, it is transferable. I can go to the general and say we are bringing bass track live to our campus theater, we want to bring the cast out to your post. He would trust my opinion that that is appropriate more than his entertainment director as a government employee. The point is how we do this work moving forward is we need to develop more intermediaries, people that have cultural capital on both sides of the artistic community. That helps everyone. And very flattering how my role was. I got to do things it was hard for her to do, heart for the presenter to do, heart for the booking agents, hard for the creative people, but I got things done for them that they couldn't do for themselves. That is a role that should be developed and talked about. Who is your intermediary after you choose a project? 

>> Thank you. 

>> I am so glad that -- yes. looking right at me. You made a comment in regards to the school community and what is going on with the war and difference with the war. I will tell you why, a dilemma I go through. In the land of pretend I play an Iraq veteran. One of the dilemmas that I was running into even last night and things like that is my mentality with regards to this particular character, this particular soldier and so forth. There is a lot of concentration on mastery being something I am clearly not. Am I sitting right, am I looking right, is that how your head goes? There is this dilemma that has grown with me through the process that we have to talk out consistently as a cast is this us and them. I can't seem to get right being one of them. Them. And what I have gradually learned throughout the process of this role and interaction with veterans and the military community and workshops and folks with PTSD is this, we are the same. It's the same pain, same trauma same everything. I could totally be a human being. I'm so glad you began the conversation with the fabric of that. We are try and walk those characters out to remain human. 

>> 

>> maybe because I'm sitting on the outer circle I want to ask a question as an outsider. We talk about a military and nonmilitary that are often -- there is this gap there. I would like us to see this conflict, this gap in a larger context of our society, which sees many communities as the other. We are trying to figure out as a society how can we live together ? How can we find what we have in common and build on that? That's what I feel like I want to do as an artist and what many of us here are trying to do. I'm trying to expand the question, make the military the intentional partner in your collaboration. We now live in a society where Muslims get attacked on the street. She can't deal with the stress anymore and her life being turned upside down. These issues are part of a larger issue. We want to hear our stories told on stage. That is very important for veterans to tell their story on stage. Can they sit in a theater and listen to the story of an Iraqi, of an Afghan, of a Muslim? If we can't do that we can't learn to live together and that is the larger issue or all of these questions sit. 

>> some thoughts on that, we will let other people get to that with more well thought out -- there was one question asked of us given the moment we are in were throwing out there, is it possible to be critical of the military and still work as an artist in collaboration with you? Or are their boundaries around subject matters that can be taken on by artists? I will concede my age. I haven't experienced this globally but there have been peaks and troughs for support for veterans. Vietnam was a low point, Iraq and Afghanistan was a relative high point. I started to experience this, potentially the start of the trough with the administration coming in and some zeroth -- zero so mentality -- zero-sum mentality. I think what is so important is to actually find the artist who may not be supportive of the military. I want to work with people who have never worked with the military. My concern is we go back to that place and we do what we are doing right now with local law enforcement officers. I will concede I don't experience the brunt of the criminal justice system. But I know there are humans and police officers doing their job in the system. We dehumanize the veteran service member in the same way we do -- in the same way we do with our police officer. That's why wanted to invite these people who may not have the connection to speak to their constituencies. 

>> you raise an interesting question. That question we didn't get to about what are the topics we can take on in part stems from trespassing on government pop -- government property when I was in my 20's. Having some strong feelings about the military at that time. I wonder if we can talk about that a little bit. We may want to go here, what are the things that are real challenges in terms of that connection? Did I miss some of the house? 

>> Arizona State University. I have heard an incredible amount of information in the past day and a half. Overwhelmingly so. We have done a lot of work with the military in the past 20 years with regard to programs, Quad from Oteri families and working with wonderful artists. Based track, carpetbag, holding it down. In the space of being an arts presenter on the largest State University campus in the country and all of these large complex issues we are talking about him, at the end of the day I'm trying to -- from the idea all politics are local, somehow operationalized these massive ideas I personally cannot take on, but I can take on pieces of connecting people who otherwise would not have talked to each other. In the best ways possible, I invite any conversation that may have been to help me in that call. I want to affect some micro change so we can plant seeds where he are and move towards a macro change. I don't have the answers. We have tried some things that have worked pretty well. The point of intermediaries is an important one when we are talk about this type of work, the stories of veterans who have seen combat. We have done that to a certain point. I'm putting that on the table to examine. These are large complex issues we are talking about. How can we plant that seed or start a little network that is addressing some of these things? 

>> you are spot on, the point you make about operationalizing, it is a big idea. Lets come down to the rubber meeting the road. Everyone sitting in this room is probably part of some group, some artistic venture. How about invite one military person to sit on your advisory board. Intentionally. That's very simple. It begins to happen there. I think we always have to remember what demystifies the military for a lot of folks as we are talking about human experience, when we talk about a person in Vietnam, World War II veterans who can still live under their beds. It's a human experience we are beginning to engage on and participate in. We need to be aware that this truly is a spectrum. It's a spectrum in a lot of ways. As it expands all the layoffs the entire organization. It's also a spectrum innocence of going from creative arts therapists to dealing with this general human experience you were referring we are all experiencing trauma. I think you have to figure out that matrix from individual experience all the way out to community and trying to deal with healing. I wanted to disclose this idea that as we do this particular -- I remind you of" I always try to live by. A lot of times the military experience gets to the ReEntry point that was made at the end. When you jump into this thing you're jumping into a potential state of darkness. It's just the nature of combat. If we do it with the idea that I can light the candle at the end, that will also bring balance to our efforts and initiatives. That's what I try to maintain as I counsel and talk about these things. I want to light the candle that I know about getting to that point. If we do that, there are a lot of ways and opportunities that you can then put that balance in terms of not just focusing on one side. And the total experience of the military can unity -- military community. My oldest daughter beats me up with this all the time. She says, we have to remember a children -- or member the children. If you talk with her, there could be a child standing there. She is investing her life in trying to create that story is -- that story. Every military person will tell you that family was vital and significant. Often times it is pretrade -- it is portrayed from the service members and through the spouses. I'll just sit down and shut up what my mom told me. 

>> one of the things I keep hearing, one of the most important questions is how do we continue bridging that gap and not just bringing in military personnel who happen to have been artists previously. Obviously that is an important aspect of it. How do we reach those populations as artists who don't have that connection with the arts may be as viscerally. A couple of things I want to bring up here is meeting them where they are. With that idea I will go down to San Antonio for the Air Force Base that is down there. There is this event that happens annually. The reason I go to it is because my uncle was an Air Force pilot shot down. Every year for the past few decades they gather their. My uncle has been dead for a couple of years, but my father and family friend have continued to go. I drive down there and I also go. One of the amazing things I find there is these are all very -- the people part of this freedom fighters Union are all very military. They maintain their military bearing when they are in the presence of everyone. Maybe they are not telling it to the public. But when the two get together those stories to come out. They are doing the arts themselves in the presence of each other. The question is how can we meet them where they are at. In some of the spaces we can't get into. We are bringing this to you, you're coming to this area or this space because of us. You are telling your stories and those stories are amazing. The other thing is playing the long game, especially when it comes to issues that are difficult for us to hear, like some of the stories in ReEntry. There are things I would recoil from. How do we approach the stories and maintain our political sense of I have my identity. Going to listen to your politics . Knowing at some point you want to challenge them, but playing the long game and stories of empathy can actually do greater change then an intermediate political assault on those opinions. I think playing the long game becomes a part of this work. 

>> it is going to be Anthony and lives. That's as many names as I can remember. 

>> I think you mentioned something about anti-military or government, and that triggered this hot sensation in my chest. The holistic counsel told me being more in touch with my body, that that is triggering something. In reaction to that, we are a spoken word performance group of Latino and black combat vets. We struggled early on with sharing our narratives. Speaking about things we disliked about the military or government makes us less patriotic. We had a lot of discussions about that. I came to a point where I said other performers, these men are my brothers, just like in military. I support them and freedom of expression, because we served in the capacity to support that freedom of expression on a grander scale in that I'm going to love him and support him in sharing his truth, we have kind of had to make peace with that and say that will not resonate with everyone and that is OK. If we consider it our people are going to consider it as a painting and go I love it. We've made peace with that idea. I want to raise the collective consciousness on this idea of the impact of people of color who serve, and that narrative needs to be further explored. It is challenging, scary, and exciting. I just wanted to share that. 

>> thank you for letting me have the microphone. We were there for dance company and resonance for 18 months in the shipyard. The end was a weeklong festival in the event because the public wasn't allowed. One of the biggest issues was it was on the toxic dumping list. The community that lived around the yard, many people hated it because it was environmental contamination. Other people -- kinds of things were going on. When we worked on that dilemma -- the question in my mind is how do we stay open to influence? How long in our process? We talk about our differences of opinions, we have a lot of duress around the budget. How and when can artistic practice in our skills around that help us hold ourselves? You actually can have the conversations. Turns out the yard was way open for it. Environmentalists absolutely would not -- they would talk to us to do not sit down with the art. We ended up doing a performance about a church, about reconciliation, where we dealt with this, being open influence -- that brings me to this wonderful discussion we heard from Sam Annamarie's. Madison said I just love to make a community, I can get people in a room. These people are not a dichotomy. Having people in a room is not a dichotomy against the fact that we also want to build skills. Victoria and I were talking how hard is it to get people in the room? That is a set of skills. Then there is this amazing evolution where you are holding people accountable. There was a wonderful 84-year-old woman in the company . Each of the old people get up and she said I'm 84 years old and she licked her arm up and everybody would applaud. She said this is not enough, I'm just lifting my arm up. Give me something to do. Challenge me. I think that's where we go with our differences. I'm back to artistic practices as this wealth of skills you are hearing from an building. 

>> Quincy Jones 12 years ago, he wanted there to be a secretary of the arts to be a part of the administration. There were petitions to be signed and all that kind of thing. Primarily what I'm saying is how does the art community not necessarily only portray or work with veterans, how do we circumvent this? This is what I'm feeling. Lyndon Johnson did not feel comfortable running for a second term. George Bush felt comfortable going into Iraq. We have to make them feel uncomfortable when we are doing 50 years trying to make up for them. We are going to have to do something anyway. We only spend the next 100 years coming here. We have to be expressing this and saying this. We have the power. We don't exercise it because we don't believe we do. We think we are limited. If we are -- if we think we are limited then we are limited. If you think you are a star then you are a star. If you think you are a piece of trash, then you are a piece of trash. We all act that way. I'm a star in certain places and a piece of trash and other places. We have the whole carpetbag staff and the whole aggregation because I have been given an opportunity to go out and meet a lot of people and grow. That's important because I'm growing here. Locally we have five people running for city Council in Knoxville. Before they could join this movement we called it the 20 17th city Council in cities for the five people and let the Council five elected -- five people elected to city Council. I'm saying we can do it, you just have to think you can do it. God, help me do this. We can make a change. 

>> you know how you think you are going to say one thing and the conversation rolls back around and you know you're going to say something different, this question of how we all come together and make change. I think the realization, and I approach this from the point of view of some of the talked about being a demonstrator and I was a peace activist, the dilemma is -- the degrees of separation are small. They seemed when I was growing up and every male cousin were very present with that. There was a time when we got disconnected from that. You the reality was what it was. As we got disconnected from it we forgot about there is only that much more separation between you and someone in the military. We went from those people who were drafted to those young people going into the military because it is an employment opportunity. Just as my cousins went -- there is this much separation. There is the belief we can change, but also being able to stimulate these conversations. That's for me what it comes down to. To look at that small degree of separation and continue this dialogue every day. We have to be about saving people's lives. Whether it is returning veterans are people going to war. 

>> Matteson, I want to get to Michael's point. I do a lot of work with engineers and artists. A lot of train wreck's happened because we don't speak the same language. You have lots of acronyms, military, lots of acronyms. As soon as someone says something we write it down and define it, not only what the letters mean but what it means. SEMPER FI, YOU KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING, ALWAYS FAITHFUL. USUALLY I SAY IT HUNG IN CHEEK. TO BE CLEAR, WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. TO MAKE A LIST OF WE ARE TRYING TO BUILD AN OPEN SOURCE PLATFORM TO SUPPORT COLLECTING THIS LANGUAGE. WHEN I SAY COLLABORATE they do not mean the same thing. That is something that is practical that will improve every project. This group, if there's a way we can share that, I know that would be amazing to not have to spend that time to make that lexicon. Thank you. 

>> Thank you to the group. The intensity and richness of this, particularly those that live and breathe it every day. So appreciated to be listening to this conversation. Something that Michael said, the organization has been in this space, many things have worked. Do we trust ourselves enough to talk about the things that have not worked so well? I learned by the things that went awry along the way. What is it that we are not doing that we might do better? Thank you. 

>> Hey, everybody. Hello. I am not a soldier. I portray one. I am a soldier in the army of love. I want to say this. With art, whether it be performed dance, song, theater, literary, visual, poetry, there are so many forms. With art shared, it is a sense of church, protest, it is a strong sense of militia. A strong power in shared art. We must keep it alive. I think all of the presenters, although the people in misery that are healers. We have a new president. He is doing what he thinks is cleaning up America. We must make sure that our art is not time caps on capsulized. It is either going to become either black or white, we do not want that to happen to America. We must sing, create, keep presenting. We must make our affordable -- art affordable. Maybe do one night free, one night $3, one night pay what you can. We must make sure we keep art as church, as militia, empowerment. That is all I have to say about that. 

>> A, everyone. I am again. What a great conversation this is. I wanted to say, as a civilian and artist, I had a lot of reluctance coming to this project, but I felt compelled to get involved. I had been hearing a lot of narratives I felt were superficial or not really getting at truth. I wanted to investigate that. That is a big motivation for me as an artist. I think of myself as an investigator and intermediary. Seven years into doing this work, I feel changed by it. It has been one of the most life-affirming, life-giving changing processes for me in terms of changing my artistic process, absolutely, but changed as a person. I came in with a certain set of ideas. I challenged them and came to know different things. We focused on women, there were women in my life that are not in my life. They are friends, collaborators, we know each other now. Being in those relationships changed me. I think about the entry point of filling compelled, how vulnerable I felt going into the space. What I'm hearing today in this circle, it has made me think about this challenge to get other civilians on board. As a civilian, I feel like I can do that. I can talk to my people. How do we change culture when we are doing social justice work? As a civilian, how do I talk to other civilians about what happened to me and why I do this . I think about all of the people. It was funny to see a story in the play about the liberal theater folks who do not want to have this conversation. I have been in space is why wanted to talk about women at work and people shut down. They don't want to hear what I want to say. For political reasons. Today, I wanted to share out this conversation about how do we get civilians on board. I am actively thinking about that. Those people who, not because they don't know about it, but they know about the work that we are doing and choose to stay out of the room. I'm curious about that. I want to talk to other people about what those stories might be. We are living in a fragmented time. Veterans there are programs with curricula, designs, you sign up. Civilians are also doing their own thing. There is no one organizing. How might we want to tap into networks to say, what is the reluctance? Why are you staying out of the room? Why aren't you hiring and providing resources? Why aren't you opening the door to veterans? What are you afraid of? To open the door and explore what that vulnerability is. 

>> One final comment. 

>> Hi, everyone. I am feeling challenged. I want to pull together threads about challenge, risk, and topics off the table, what is political, going where we are afraid. I was convening with Captain Maguire months back where she was facilitating a session that asked what our stereotypes were about veterans, or assumptions, before doing this work. I am Arab-American. I said my assumption was that you are the enemy. The I started working with veterans, the conversations in my community, the feeling in the chest that comes up that is being talked about, is that I might think that you, the military, are the enemy because I assume you think I am the enemy. This conversation about othering and the political environment we are in, I have to say that there is no such thing as artistic work that is not political. Representation is political. Any time we put anything in the public sphere it is political. The question is, what are we saying in relation to the political context that we are in? As an artist, I go where I am afraid. I go where I feel challenged. I feel challenged in these rooms. I walk into a VA full of veterans, many who have served writing people that look -- fighting people that look like me and I am scared. I look in their eyes and realize that they are scared that I just walked into the room and in facilitating. We get to be in the region human -- and the re-humanizing process. The re-humanizng process is being able to go to those risky and challenging places, be afraid, and do it anyway. It is what artists and the military trains to do. There are really interesting places of common ground that help us, like Liz was saying about the skills the artistic process brings, bringing us to places where we can challenge. No topic is off the table. We must ask the hardest questions to create the best work to heal together. That is something. Thank you. 

>> Thank you, everyone. [Applause] 

>> A really wonderful conversation. More of you have more things to say and we will have more conversation after lunch. 

>> Lunch is available in the lobby outside. It is a boxed lunch. Feel free to eat in the lobby, here, walk around. We're back at 1:15. If you are interested in a dine around, sign up the end of lunch. We will cancel reservations that don't have names on it by that time. Thank you, very much. Please stand by. Please stand by. Please stand by. 

>> Those of you out in the hall or those of you who are still on your feet, if you could let people know that we are beginning and encourage everyone to come take a seat. I'm going to start with a couple of pieces of business. Jamie, do you need to start with any business? OK, good. A couple of things. Quickly, I want to make two significant acknowledgments. I will start with one while people are gathering. I think the role of the presentations of the art has been so important to the quality of the conversation we are having and the sense of the experience we are having, and I want to just acknowledge the work of the technical crew here that -- [APPLAUSE] They pride themselves on never being seen, but they do exist. Feel free to thank them when you see them, but we have our technician in the booth. And our crew on the stage. I just want to be sure and thank them. Also, just a quick thing about the process -- I think you are starting to feel it. I want you to trust it. We believe deeply in it, so I appreciate your continued participation, active participation in it, but I think you can feel that the conversations are starting to acquire a kind of -- there are themes that have arisen, questions in the air that will ultimately need to be answered, and there's anxiety, which I love about what do we do with it ? When we leave here, what happens ? Take a look at the agenda, and you will notice on Sunday, tomorrow, we spend quite a bit of time in that question of now what? We are in breakout groups looking at what we do, what we take away from here, then we have individual opportunities on what we take away from that, so continue to gather the questions and bring them tomorrow. A list went by yesterday of resources. These things are being gathered, and tomorrow will be the moment to capture what you are going to do as you leave. Maintain this space of being open to influence. I loved that formulation. Then, reminder on the circle, we talked about talking together, talking to each other, and on the circle, if you could make sure that your listening is active. I know many of you are taking notes on your computers. Taking notes, keeping your computers is great. Try to stay off your email. If you need to be on an email, probably leaving the room is better than doing it in the room. My last acknowledgment before we jump in, I think there are people who were here yesterday and we are here for a second day, so I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this event is taking place, the Massachusetts and one cannot -- wa umpanaug people and pay respect to their elders, and I invite you to do the same for a moment. Thank you. Then we have one other surprise on the agenda, which is that this table would like to start the singing of the national anthem. 

>> ♪ o, say, can you see By the Dawn's early light What so proudly we hailed At the twilight's last gleaming Whose broad stripes and bright stars Through the perilous fight O'er the ramparts we watched Were so gallantly streaming And the rockets' red glare The bombs bursting in air Gave proof through the night That our flag was still there O, say, does that Star-Spangled Banner yet wave O'er the land of the free And the home of the brave ♪ 

>> Play ball. 

>> Thank you. So, you have seen how this works. The introductions will go this way at the request of -- oh, you want to go this way. I thought you wanted me to go the other way. Pretend I'm timing you. Carl is much better with his timer than I am. Pretend Karl's timing you. We will do one minute each as we go around. 

>> OK, I am Melissa Walker, the healing arts program coordinator . I have worked very closely with a lot of you, and most of you know that I have to say that the opinions expressed in a moment are mine alone and not those at the Department of Defense or federal government. I want to say, as you guys all know, I'm usually pretty vocal. I have then -- I have been pretty quiet. I feel very fortunate for the discussions that have occurred and what is about to happen. I want to talk a little bit about that landscape that came up and just remind you that I have then immersed -- I have been immersed in the clinical round for the past few years. I have had exposure to artists coming both into the clinical setting and out in the community setting. But this is very new to me. Also, I have to go back to something Liz Lerman said yesterday about how the continuum is a circle in that a lot of the service members we work with and veterans will be coming in and out of the clinical space and community space and back again, so I would like to address how we do that safely and how we work together and also, a wonderful point made earlier, learn each other's languages. One thing I will point out is the name of this panel -- military health care practitioners, V.A., and her therapists -- art Arabists -- art therapists'perspective. I want to knowledge we are creative therapists, so there are music therapists here as well. 

>> I'm Lisa Long, a pediatrician and musician. I have worked with music therapists. I'm a musician myself but does medicine and ran an orchestra of medical professionals for about 20 years. I'm still in member, but what I think is really interesting is that we all have a place at the table. The medical professionals who are artists, the artists who want to be working in healing spaces as well as the people who are learning to heal through their art. There is a space for all of that. There is going to be tension at the edges, but it's where that tension lies where growth happens the greatest, and I think that is something that we have to just ordered except and just listen a little harder whenever we get to those tensions. I think empathy and compassion comfort with ambiguity. These are things we teach our students as sort of a preventative way of moving the field forward so the next generation will understand even better than we do. That's where I'm coming from. 

>> Captain Mora Maguire. My current position, lead for integrated health and wellness. My entire life has been in the arts. I started underneath the piano, and my dad taught voice lessons on Saturday, and it has never stopped. My mom's hard work on her plays. Much like Melissa, my head is spinning a little bit because there is a heaviness but also an excitement and a lot of dots and ideas I'm going to try to express myself as clearly as I can. Lisa just mentioned something that I find interesting when we talk about these gaps or the intersection between arts and medicine. I think if it is an intersection, it's like saying we are going to talk to you about people and patience. I'm pretty sure patients are people. These are the exact same rings, so I feel as though, you know, there needs to be a shift in the way we message things, and that some paradigms need to be completely destroyed because they are not even true, and it hurts and harms our ability to do some really good work. I will elaborate on that later. Thank you. 

>> Good afternoon. My name is Dr. Michelle Stefan L.A., and I am part of the V.A. caregiver program out of central office, Washington, D.C., and the program works with post-9/11 veterans, families, caregivers, and their families. I am really delighted to have been invited here by Jane and the group to really talk about the network and -- of available services and partnerships that already embarked with the Veterans Administration and the community, and I will address that in a little bit, so thank you. 

>> Before you go, cannot also say there is nothing that I say today that represents the views of the DOD or the government. Thank you. 

>> My name is Sarah Kass, and I'm retired from the military, so I no longer need to give that disclaimer. My views are mine and my alone and nobody else is claiming them. I come here today sometimes feeling like an impostor, but yet, deeply interested in the work that is happening. I retired from the Navy two years ago after 23 years of service. The last few years working specifically at the national Intrepid Center of excellence with Melissa and Rebecca and Bill O'Brien from the NEA military healing arts partnership that we now call the creative forces network. Prior to that -- I'm kind of excited to see all this come together because prior to that, I worked at headquarters for Navy medicine and health bring reentry to military bases across the Marine Corps and the Navy, and it is exciting to see the great work going on with that. But when I retired from the military, I had a choice of what I wanted to do and what was most important to me was to bring the things that were working in health care to help veterans, service members, and their families heal from these invisible wounds of war. I had seen the incredible power of the healing arts, both in a clinical setting as well as community engagement and wanted to help promote that and foster that, so that's why I work as a consultant to the NEA. Thanks for letting me be here today. 

>> I'm Jeremy, and I am a general internist with the foundation for Art and healing and also a poet, so I'm looking at this wonderful conversation from lots of perspectives. The foundation for Art and healing is a nonprofit. It has been around 14 years, and we explore and promote the idea that creative arts expression improves health and well-being, and we do that in three areas. One is creating awareness to people for whom it is not immediately obvious, but I'm happy to say most people find it an appealing idea and can rapidly move towards it when you put it in front of them. We also develop innovative programs of various kinds to bring creative expression opportunities to people, and we also do research. In many ways, I think that is kind of the anchor for their identity as an organization, to try to bridge growing neurological research and understand what is going on in the brain with creative expression, and then what we can make available to people in their communities, either directly or through groups. I'm here today 100% because of an accidental encounter with Bill O'Brien about six years ago. It was a convening like this on a related topic, design and health care, and Bill said, "you should come see what we are doing." It has been a terrific partnership working with that great energy. Because there are so many clinicians around the table, I thought I would share a little bit about our newest initiative and focus, which is to look at loneliness and isolation as a public health challenge. I will make it that now -- within two to 43 years, you will be hearing about loneliness and isolation as the public health challenge that will replace the obesity. I know about it because you are already hearing about it on NPR, which is like the leading edge of things. I think we are generally aware that loneliness and isolation is a challenge on the mental health or behavioral health side, the classic triad in the risk for substance abuse and depression and suicide. There something about the lonely brain or the isolated brain that because of increased in inflammatory response and reduction in immune response has a 30% increase of early mortality totally separate from suicide and substance abuse, but because of cardiovascular risk, heart disease and stroke, and immune deficiency, which leads to uncle logic risk. The risk for being lonely and isolated is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Yet, as a society, we do not react to it. We do not talk to that level of awareness, attention, and commitment of resource, so we have taken it on. We have launched the un -loneliness project last May. We do a lot of awareness, generating, and programs, so to generate awareness, we are doing an online home Festival on loneliness and isolation. I did not take the marketing course, but a new we should not call of the lonely isolated film Festival. It is the creatively connected so Festival, and we will talk more about -- it will lead to end at the and some of the other kind of activities we are talking about. 

>> Great. 

>> I am a music therapist for creative forces. Thank you for pointing out that clarification on the screen. I work alongside Melissa -- am I being too soft? I work alongside Melissa. I also have been working with creative forces on the expansion project, which I and very grateful for the opportunity of moving to California, which is exciting next week to start developing this and other areas. Being here with some of the colleagues I have gone to grad school with, did my grad school at Harvard University, and I'm a music therapist, but I am a musician. This is my community, and it always will be. It's my home. I only got here today, but just by engaging in that anthem and hearing everyone at this table and everyone in the room say they feel very connected right now more than ever from this morning, even being a target participant to the convening just from that music experience, I think that says a lot about community building, through even a small, very powerful piece. 

>> Great. 

>> Hello, I'm Brittany Costa. I am a musician, and arts administrator, and I am in the military. I am here today with Berklee College of music. I found out about the convening from Rebecca, so thank you. I and the department coordinator there, and we are trying to grow our program so we can reach out more to the military and veteran community. We are trying to expand because it is what we feel we need to do. It is a very important community that should experience music therapy, and it is already happening at Walter Reed and a lot of other veterans organizations, and a lot of our students are expressing the wanting to be involved in that population, so we are hoping to partner with more local organizations, veteran hospitals, other universities where they have a veteran student population to train our students with professional music therapy facilitators. That way, we are training our students to have the knowledge of that population, the knowledge of how to work with that population and also contribute to the community by providing more music therapy outlets to them. Through that, we will research and evaluate so we can provide data to establish more funding because foundations love data. We don't think that we need to prove the validity, but Western medicine thinks that we do, so we are going to continue to do that, and that way, we can create sustainability through our programming. On the other side, my military experience, I have been in for 11 years the Army band, but I also did five years active duty in a military health care facility. 

>> I'm Scott Engel, a psychologist over at Fort Hood. Again, the caveat, the Jews I express are not the views of the duty but are specifically my own. That aside, I and a civilian and not an artist, so why am I here? That poses an important question. It has been somewhat uncomfortable at times. If my mother is watching, at the six great -- the sixth grade recital, I wasn't really playing the clarinet. I pretended. So now it is out. We are a very uniquely situated. We are a private public partnership with DOD and the intrepid heroes fund. We have four separate sections where we are treating the servicemember holistically. We have a medical section, rehab section, pains action, psychological health section. I have over 50 assets in that footprint and somehow I get to be the director, so it is quite a privilege. We recently partnered with a BA and are expanding services to include art therapy. Part of the challenge I face is intuitively understanding as a psycho dynamically trained psychologist the value and utility of art, how to convince my staff there is value added. Eventually, they understand they have to get on the boat or they will not be able to stay because this is where we are going. There is a richness to this that I think has to be explained to our staff so people understand it. Getting our servicemembers exposed to art therapy and eventually building bridges to our community so they can get out of the bunker and get back to the community and be engaged. I will stop there. 

>> Hi, I'm Bill O'Brien, senior advisor for the Chama for national endowment of the arts, and I come to this table with a sense of all my worlds colliding. I think there is a shift in value that I experienced that is worth me bringing forward at this conversation. I spent about 15 of my first adult years as a theater making practitioner performing on stages in 48 states, writing and composing music for national tour's and becoming a producer. About 10 years ago, I came to the national endowment for the arts, witnessed the birth of Howell -- HowlRound, and for about 6, 7 years now, I have an working on setting up a program innovation office. We look a lot at the intersection of art, science, nature of creativity in the brain, that kind of thing, but also arts and health and military was the other thing that I was given a task to consider, and I realized it all came together in one fell swoop. The reason I wanted to bring this foreword is that as a practitioner and as the experience that I've had as desperate doing art as a colleague, as a vocation, there is a set of core values I think we all understood, and they are things like freedom of speech, the resistance of content shaping, not allowing your art to be used as a reduced utility for some other purpose. If there is one thing that has been a really interesting shift in my mind, as we work in a very patient-centered, person-centered way, it is to think again about who is an artist and what is the purpose of that art. When you really put it into a specific purpose where you are locking arms with a team of people and you are bringing arts to the table to confront a societal concern that a lot of evil care about, those values need to be reconsidered. It's OK to be thinking about the art as a utility, to be thinking about we are bringing arts into play as an important player in the role of the effort to confront the most vexing invisible wounds of war. I think it is a very powerful thing. It really reintegrated, reenergized my sense of what art means to me, who does it, where it happens. 

>> Is a great place to begin. Sarah, I'm going to come to you. 

>> I said I was the imposter. 

>> Yeah, that's why. One of the things that has sort of a reason in the earlier conversations -- there seems to be -- three different areas have surfaced in terms of the utility aspect. We all have it out of a sense that this work is happening and matters. But then I have heard this kind of divergence about how and why. The area that is striking me is we have been talking about cultural diplomacy, that just surfaced recently as the utility of art and military as a tool of cultural diplomacy. We also talked about it as a healing tool, and we have talked about it as civics literacy. And anybody can jump in, but I wanted to ask you specifically -- is it important to you -- do you think we are clear at the outset -- are we doing all three at once? Do we need to be focused on which we are doing and which we are not doing? How important is it to be clear from your perspective? 

>> I think it is really important that we are very clear what our intention is at the outset. That does not mean there are not sometimes unintended consequences of something that happens, and I can give a very clear example. When Melissa was engaged with our patients doing a mask making therapeutic intervention, and clearly, the intent is a very specific healing intention for an individual patient, but one of the things we did was we started to display the masks in the center in a way that I think importantly invited others into engaging in their own error free. They realized when they walked into the studio and saw the masks of other people that they were not alone, that they could go with others and take that risk of engaging in therapy. What started as an individual therapeutic encounter could be used as a way almost unintentionally to invite others into therapy. The last part of that same thing, that gets into the civic discourse on this initiative is these same masks became sort of an interest to "National Geographic," and a spread in "National Geographic" was done, highlighting some of the work. As I would have to sit there and justify the cost of the facility, I would talk about the value of what happened in the facility in helping educate society of what 15 years of war looks like. I think that is incredibly important. A lot of what I have heard in this room the past couple of days. But I think at the very beginning, we always go back to why we are creating those masks, and if we deviate from that to start to be about civic discourse, I think then we are making those patients artists, and that is not what is important. What is important to them is healing. Where we start is, I think, critically important, but I think we ought to be open to how they can be used in other ways. 

>> That open to influences that Liz suggested earlier. Anyone have a follow on to that? 

>> I would like to piggyback on that. 

>> I don't know if you want to piggyback on me. I could care you, but I would take us totally off road. 

>> I keep hearing these conversations about art as though it is a separate entity from the person. In other words, like this a person, they are breathing. Did you see that? Or they are eating. This is such a natural part of who we are. With an integrated health and wellness, when people come, I do not immediately assume that they do not take care of themselves. I ask them how they take care of themselves. His the same thing. I do not assume you are not created or an artist. I would like to know how you are. At the end of the day, we are all storytellers. You just told a story. We all curate our lives. We are all creative. I think we are reinforcing that paradigm. That's not helpful. 

>> As an artist, which is my relationship to this work, when I into, how do I express that? Both my sense of understanding that and my curiosity about the difference between your experience and how you are going to express it as an artist and my experience? How to white inter-in a way that doesn't say, "good for you, you are eating. And I'm so surprised you can breathe." -- how do I enter. 

>> It reinforces the idea that it is something separate, so art should be and inclusive term and not an exclusive one. There is a difference between being a professional artist, and artist who kind of dabbles, but we are all artists, and we are all created. We use terms like "the arts," but that is like someone saying, "tell me about medicine." I think sometimes our messaging is not clear, and it interferes with what we are trying to do, right? Reminding people that we are creative and it is as natural as breathing and eating. 

>> If I can, I'm going to try to string two points from that. Artwork is an extension of ourselves. From our therapists' point of view, we use art to connect with the patient. Same as the music. In the case of "National Geographic, I had to very carefully choose who was involved in the project, and I think it is important for people to know that. I did not just pick a couple of names out of a hat. They were less vulnerable. They had to opt into it and feel comfortable with it and I had to also explained to them that they are out there in society for people to judge, but it also had positive aspects in that people became aware of our therapy as a way to treat these invisible wounds of war, and it also allowed society to better understand what they were going through, so invalidated their experiences, which was a beautiful thing, and a think that plays into the end of the part of this conversation we are about to get into. One more thing about this loneliness and isolation -- these masks have created a community for the service members. Community has been strong through this entire event and also has shown up in our research. We researched about 400 of the masks. We have had about 1300 created. Those service members who symbolized his sense of community, either within their team or within the military or within their families, they had a lower score of PTSD. So we are able to take that and know that sense of community is a protective factor. Loneliness and isolation, not a healthy thing. The arts are a great and beautiful way to help create that sense of community. We have seen service members create actual artist teams working together outside of the clinical round, so it does happen. I think this is such an important conversation for us to have. 

>> Can I just add onto that as a clinician? I had the opportunity of visiting you in Washington just a few weeks ago, and as soon as you were up close and looking at a mask, you can start to understand, having not even met the veteran, some of the things they are going through, and just looking at those masks, they speak so loudly that that increased my into the and really prepared me for this conference, to see the kinds of struggles that are expressed through a simple mask, and I think that is building a community. It is difficult for us to be thinking -- you know, clinicians are on one side and patience are on the other and which ones are the artist? As many opportunities as we had to either make art together or to discuss art together, that breaks down the barriers. 

>> I think there's actually three different dimensions that we are trying to blend a bit today, which is there's the clinicians, the patients, and the artists, as though they were separate. And as civilian artists, artists with no experience in the military entering this conversation, how do we enter in a place of understanding that we are part of this continuity, you know, this unity? I want to let Michelle go because it was a bit ago, and then I have a question for you. 

>> I just wanted to touch base on a couple of things with Jeremy and Melissa and everyone who is talking. With the V.A. caregiver program, during the RAND study in 2014, they did identify that 53% of the caregivers definitely feel isolated. With that being said that they are looking for the social support. With that going up to the next level, we have a program, which is the peer support mentoring program, and where caregivers teach other caregivers on a national level. Because of the outcome study, we have found that local peer mentoring 101 is to face is more -- has more of an impact. Just to give you an idea of what is happening, you know, to bring it closer together, pyramid tour's --. Mentors -- peer mentors volunteer around the nation at over 50 organizations. There's probably some organizations in your community that you are not aware of. Also, they walk the walk. That's one of my sayings that we reflect on. If you cannot walk in my shoes, walk the walk. That's really where they are promoting their education, their knowledge, and sharing their experiences. What I'm getting at also is that there is some of the mentors expressing through art therapy and through music therapy, and as a matter of fact, one of my mentors is pretty much a subject matter expert dealing with PTSD and art and wrote a book. So I'm really glad to see that this is coming together. 

>> Is there a place we can find that list of 50 -- we don't need to go through the list now, but a place we can get that information and put it into the report so people can have it? Great. 

>> Just something to piggyback off that comment. When we were in creative forces, we held a meeting in San Diego around Veterans Day last year. From combat arts, one of the artists in the community -- she is not an art Arabist. She is very eager to say she is not an art therapist and works closely with leadership as well, but the question was how do you access, and she said one of the biggest things that helped her was getting those peer mentor veterans who help her to bridge the gap between what she does not know, her gap in knowledge and what the needs are of that population. She does not have necessarily therapeutic trading -- training. She is not a credentialed art therapist. It is supplemental. It is meeting a need because there is not an art therapist at that base yet. Instead of having no art, they are using community artists in a way they can bridge that gap. Working in San Diego in the nonprofit sector before I moved into creative forces, I have had some great experiences with community interaction. I had a lot of eager Hollywood musicians wanting to partner. Some of those partnerships went really well and some did not. For everything that goes well, those few that did not -- what I saw exploiting the veteran was very problematic. And we can be inclusive, but it is informed inclusivity. People have to be informed. Information sharing. 

>> Talk more about the elements of what was wrong, what went wrong? We want to make sure that we are surfacing mistakes as well as -- 

>> Everything is a spectrum. Everything is a continuum, right? On a spectrum, I always start with positives. What went really well -- programs like music or with Arthur Bloom, and he works on base at Walter Reed, and he works with patients, with musicians and musician trainers, with patients who have a strong clinical team, and he takes them out to perform at Kennedy Center for an open audience of their peers, the community, the civilian bridging that divide, to a spectrum where we have some people from Hollywood who are working with service members to record their song and in of exploiting that with people who shall remain nameless -- Billy Ray Cyrus. It is out in public. 

>> Is public information. 

>> It was on CNN where they had this song that was written in a music therapy context and was very much shifted and then made a music video that was blasted across the nation, to a much more severe end of the spectrum where there is a songwriting workshop that highlighted a service member who wrote a song called "I can't see the sunshine ," about his experience in combat, losing friends and family members, and after that was broadcast, the service member ended up killing himself, and the headline read, "veteran engaged in music therapy commits suicide." That was not music therapy, but IT WAS JUST INFORMED BY THE MEDIA. 

>> CHEMICAL YOU IN ON THIS? YESTERDAY HE RAISED THE QUESTION VERY DIRECTLY ABOUT WHAT DOORS, WITH TRIGGERS AND HOW TO MANAGE THOSE. 

>> Our patient population is very fragile. And moving to get treatment is courageous. The warrior ethos prohibits seeking of care. Their efforts to change the culture and it happens very incrementally. The Spirit Center platform is helping raise awareness and allowing folks to step forward and receive care. I think you do find inherently therapist and providers. That is my soldier. That is our soldier. We will be very careful referring them to the community. We know the perils of potential challenges that may be encountered. That is perhaps also due to a lack of understanding as to where are the boundaries, how do things exist in the community. We are just in the process of engaging in that. We have a therapist on the ground. After our PTSD groups, individuals will go to yoga or art therapy. The benefits that are seen as a psychodynamic between psychologists is so rich and beautiful and amazing. Whether our service members -- there are struggling  to bring this to life. One example is in some of the art there was a weapon, suicide, and a gun to a person's head. His our presentation. We did not get that information until 48 hours later. That is concerning. That is a challenge. We have to be talking and understand. The risks we may be talking about different populations. As well as folks out of the community seeking art as rehabilitative community engagement aspect. When I talk about our patients, I'm talking about folks actively engaged in treatment. There are significant risks with a population that may be different than some of the guys you see in your studios. 

>> and probably -- I think we are all -- the clinicians are conscience of the safety issue. We are very conscious in the broad population of people of any level of distress is some subset who have significant levels of distress. It is our obligation to be attentive to the fragility of that subpopulation. At the same time and public health it is often diagrammed as a pyramid. There is a base of a pyramid, people with mild risk factors, struggling with something. May not even know they have an issue. Then you have middle of the pyramid, people who have it in a mildly. People at the top of the pyramid that have severe issues. This is true whether it is diabetes or heart disease or mental health issues. We have to get much more careful and precise when we start thinking about programming, particularly to the vulnerable population. Where we are on the pyramid. You can make a mistake any good direction. Oh, creative art expression is so precious and targeting people with significant distress in tightly controlled environments. That runs the risks of not exposing or allowing people to benefit from the amazing ability of the arts to create conversation builds resilience, share sense of connection and all those wonderful things. We have to find our way. It is very timely conversation. If we don't get it right, people move to one direction or the other. Lady quite polarized. It slows things down. 

>> to both of those points, you said communication. I think that to enter into that space with a servicemember or veteran is going to be important to say art is a powerful thing. This will innately and naturally bring up things for you and be aware of that. Both the person facilitating the art but also the veteran or servicemember themselves, and to have resources and safety net in your community or local area set up in case they do get an appointment need to go back to the clinic space. A good example is an art there this we work with. She assists or is with her -- many of the patients she is treating in a nonclinical setting and the community. They do ceramics. She explains to them this is not therapy time. Did something comes up during this experience we can talk about it back in the space. Another thing I need to say is I think you bring up a good point. It was in the reentry conversation earlier that a lot of the service numbers feel like if they do open up in the clinical space they will lose their jobs or rank or security clearance. They are a little more accountable sometimes outside of that realm of opening up. We have to remind ourselves of that. But then I've worked with another organization who made sure -- I know this doesn't always work because every yesterday -- there was accretive art therapist in the room during the workshop. They wove art and music and writing through the theme of the workshop. The creative art therapist was not there to interject or be a part of the process. That was a trainer situation where the veterans are actually helping lead and train other veterans the future workshops. It felt like there was a safety. It was all inclusive and it felt very safe. 

>> can I switch topics for just a second? We can come back to it if there is something unsaid all we can get to it on the outer circle. This comes right out of this. Britney, I think it will poke at you for a second if you don't mind. We have heard a lot as far, as I am provocative, about reframing the notion ve of the a victim or a patient that needs helpt and the arts can come and help. And reframing that to help the arts and the strength and the training and the purpose-driven life of a veteran, how to do things come together to create that. In this conversation where we focus so much about coming in to help, can you talk about your own experience of where you feel art and your experience as a veteran come together? 

>> I can try. [LAUGHTER] I think a lot of what Melissa was saying is important. Everyone has their own experience. Some people value having another veteran in the room kind of help them collaborate, except, experience things together. Some of them don't want that at all. I have been among veterans who cannot be in uniform anymore and they cannot be evil in uniform. -- people in uniform. Treatment cannot happen unless everyone in uniform leaves the room. I've had two go home and change it to civilian clothes and then go meet someone at a café off face because they were not able to communicate or speak to me in any way if I was in uniform. I had to pretend I was not in the military. I think there is different situations and everyone has their own experiences. That is always -- that is something that is good to understand and value. Anyone who was working with the veteran or military community, that is a good thing to be trained in I guess. On the flipside it is good to have AP about of around with you to translate or to have a language so there is no barrier. 

>> I want to get one other thing we talked about and then we can go wherever we have time to go. I will point is that you. We have also talked a lot about the difference between professional artists and the veteran. We have talked about the fact that many are both. We have talked about the projects that involve practice where the veterans are the three to partisan the project, and where the project is created by artists who represent the experience of the veteran. Is there a distinction in your mind in terms of the value for role of either of those places to stand, whether it is participation of the veterans and create a process or yesterday we talked about in terms of audience, for is the receiver whose stories are being represented? Is there a value  difference there or different wasted a plate of? What would you say is going on in that? 

>> I think both are very valid. I think Liz Lerman referred to the process to the product. I was thinking about that in terms of musicwith Arthur Bloom''s group organizations maybe double or triple FETs, but they are musicians first and practice for 8-10 hours a day or they will jam for hours, during which time as a neuroscientist or a physician D.C. their executive function is improving and occupational therapy is not necessary because they are practicing fingering on their guitar or Piano. All the things are happening in the process of something beyond themselves. I was thinking about that is overall what are we doing as we are looking for a purpose-driven life. I was talking to people yesterday saying our life does not stop after the war. What is going to go on for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years of our life and what is our direction go with our new identity or built-in identity? That is true for all of us who have a trauma of any sort. But the arts is one of those things for you can never win. You can never get to the absolute pinnacle of art because art is always beyond you. A gives you something to strive for at all moments, even if you play the same concerto it sounds different next year when you have a different life experience. Or if you are in a play 100 times in the country, each performance is different. I think that's going back to the point of we are all a single population. And just helping pre-integrated so we are all moving in that same population is what is really key. 

>> I have another question. Captain, if you don't mind. Is their equivalency in your mind between the skills we have heard, the different skills -- we have used the term "warriors" . In this conversation are you feeling we are on the Liz Lerman balance place in terms of the skills of warriors bring to the conversation and the skills the artists bring to the conversation? Is that balance important as we enter these projects and how are we doing as a field in your experience of us in that? 

>> oh my gosh. [LAUGHTER] It is interesting to use the word skills. I will answer your question but probably not actually answer it and answer what I think I heard you say. In my work I deal with skills all the time. That is what health and wellness is about, providing people with skills that they need to be healthy and well. The skill of self-awareness, because it is a skill. Sometimes it takes us to places that are very uncomfortable, but the more you do it sometimes the easier it gets. Those are the skills. I totally agree it is the process. That is at the end of the day exactly what it's about. At Walter Reed we have artists in health care worker the inpatient unit. They are not creative arts so they don't intentionally evoke dramatic memories. But they are artists who received specialized training. They are literally just there to acknowledge that moment and capture it. That is it. A single data point. You don't need to do anything with it if you don't want to. There is no product. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. Those of the skills I think everybody needs. For instance, when we were singing because Melissa and Rebecca and I think from time to time, I'm in out so. That s -- I'man alto. You can't be an alto by yourself. You can be a soprano by yourself and you can't be an alto. Is important for us understanding who we are. I think that also space to the community. I don't know that answer your question. 

>> my question was probably more concerned about whether or not in this particular conversation we have equivalency in terms of which are more important. I am getting at this dynamic of we coming in to help. We come in to help in our skills are brought into the equation. And hearing at this table the work is already going on. 

>> I think this touches on what I was wanting to say earlier, which is some of the people I have seen who have been in this space for a while from the art side, places like in part. If you seen the video, they do blacksmithing and pottery with people who got to the creative forces project. There was glassblowing. I saw this in the second piece of kj's yesterday and I want to talk to her about that. This happened in the writing program was initially we were eager to get into the drama. There was some good background. James Pennebaker, a psychologist who is in excessive writing focused on drama. As he got into a conversation we started to think maybe our role is making sense. We can, and this is the content shaping thing, let's steer ourselves to be where we can feel comfortable if there is going to be something deep and heavy, survivor guilt or some other existential issue, in this setting. I would rather the greater pa -- creative arts therapist be the one to manage that. In kj's peace, really experiencing it again. It was very moving. I did notice it was a lot of anger, a lot of PTSD kinds of issues. And in the subsequent piece she was thinking about creating to have a conversation with Navy medical people was a much different kind of set of tone and themes. Thane navy chap. Now what is he going to say? I looked outside the circle. About stigma. For me, what I have gained an appreciation of is that if you think about it in terms of Eugene O'Neill's sense of his life purpose as pulling back the veil on the mysteries of the human condition. I think if we really understand the wartime experience has given people who have gone through that an unfair advantage in pursuing that work, we are not looking at it as a notice. We are looking at as meaning making an insight. When we come into these spaces safely, if we could just be thinking a safe way to come and is to steer insight towards the kinds of proactive things they are groping for rather than germination on the things we might find fascinating but might not be the healthiest thing for all of us. 

>> we will go to the circle but Sarah you have the first question. Who has got the mics. Sarah, major comment but we are running out of -- Sarah, make your comment. We are running out of time. [APPLAUSE] 

>> the only thing I was going to piggyback on to what Bill was saying, why I think it's so important this dialogue we are having together as a community is so incredibly important is because we're talking as health care providers about what's happening. Less than 50% of people suffering from PTSD and dramatic rain injury actually going to the health care setting. They go into communities. That is why this is such an important dialogue because healing happens out in the communities. The more we can learn together and learn from each other how to address this is so important. I want to really pointed out because we are only talking about those who come see us. There is a lot more. 

>> you have the microphone. 

>> thank you for that. That's a good introduction to what I was going to say just now. You asked a question about killing within the community, to the veterans and helping. So this is the thing, for me personally as a veteran, when I went to carpetbag they were not helping me with heart. They created a space where I could be heard and they were listening. That's what it was. For me it was not art. I was sitting in a circle with people who appeared to care and had a mutual understanding because the question in the center of the circle was related to being a veteran or knowing or associating with someone that was a veteran. Every story told was that. When he came to me I was able to share my story so it was not an art, it was listening. The community and someone was listening and waiting to hear me. 

>> hands up if you have -- I want to encourage people. This is the part of the process were some of you sitting in listening for a long time at this point. More than a day. You are sitting on things that need to get into the room. I really want to encourage those of you who have not yet shared the things you are afraid to share or unformed. Sometimes they call this step up your participation and step up your listening. If you're someone that tends to participate, step of your listening. If you tend not to participate, we need to hear that from UB's are holding things that need to get into the room. 

>> as someone who is participated -- you may the announcement after. [LAUGHTER] 

>> this is not about shaming. Is about encouraging. [LAUGHTER] 

>> I thought you were looking at me when you said that. One thing you said, Melissa, thinking about the safety net around us. I think there is an implicit assumption there is a safety net. I know a lot of us have communities we work with that the treat of art therapist might not be there. Doesn't have to be. I guess my question is how is community service providers, what are the resources we should be looking into as potential safety nets if there is not a creative forces their best in the area? Where do we go when we cross that line and someone needs more support? Where do we need them? -- lead them? 

>> I don't know if I can because I will be endorsing, but I will list for some big in her ear. I'm just kidding. Sort of. 

>> I think some of it -- [LAUGHTER] 

>> how is it the most performance is happening? 

>> I think some of it has to do with the training ahead of time. It is about intention and being prepared for those sorts of things. And not waiting until you need it to know where it is. I think when you're going into a situation, a lot of ties to collect in medicine informed consent. Making sure the get people to clear understanding of what they are about to engage in so they can choose whether or not to do it or not and be prepared. Having those resources, I think across multiple communities there are lots of different places that are federal that will support that. The Department of Defense or veterans health centers and vet clinics and all the things that exists. There are a lot of nonprofit organizations for health care. Giving hours is a great organization. Another -- there are a number of them. If you are in a community and starting to do this work, you should know where your safety net is before you engage so you know where to go to. 

>> know your safety net is refer you engage. 

>> I totally agree with that. If you just let them know you are there, is the a, -- the vVA, people like to be coming to you. If you create a dialogue with them let them know where to regular something comes up? Start that relationship with them. start that relationship with them. 

>>? -- Jeremy? 

>> what we can provide his guidance to groups like yours. Certainly agree with everything that has been said. There is growing awareness that some of the core skills you need in the community -- and talking about the base of the pyramid. People are mostly OK go's the time but giga triggered by something even though they are not severely distressed. UCLA arts and health program has been looking at this for a while. They developed a training program, a 20 or 30 hour training program. Closely for artists who want to work in various group activities to adjust train them in facilitation skills recognizing something that may be a problem and are for out. -- and refer out. Someone is sick and need a therapist or maybe we ignore them or provide fairly non-provocative conversations. The risk you run with a non-provocative conversation is able this it. It will miss the opportunity to connect and share. I think we will see other ways to put safety entities scenarios -- into these scenarios. Some of these that all of these are ticket programs. There is enormous amount of positive energy from the art world. It is not just for veterans. It is older adults, caregivers, minorities. There is a lot of trauma out there. If you require you have to be a licensed therapist, we will be behind. 

>> a quick question. Your research around lowliness -- what I was hearing and connecting was that community is actually a kind of treatment for loneliness. The elements of this work that create community are actually at the core. 

>> yes. If the illness metaphorically is loneliness, what is the antidote? It is connection. Connection at an authentic level and a very much ties to what we have been talking about. 

>> Michelle was hoping for the Mic. I have one behind me. Nolan. 

>> I think I heard Sam, your question about how to partner out a little bit. I think you have to use the creativity that you have as individuals and not only start from a local setting. For example, your colleges. Get a seat on the presidential board of the Department of higher education in your talents, in your state. Then move out to the American legions, the vet centers, and then also establish a task force committee and bring in, invite the community into your organization. It really works. 

>> thank you. 

>> test one. That's a great comment. I would like to tie into that in the previous comment. That question precedes this idea of resource. There is a need for resource. And so the point I have observed is they are resource on both sides. The art community, but there is also a resource on the military side. This is what I think connection is so critical. I often share with idea of what you are trying to do in bridging into the communities -- I did a short piece for Jane -- created organic ecosystem that becomes self-fulfilling and self-sustaining. But this is writing from a structural perspective, and I'm just going to label it local arts agency because it could be really anyone, someone has to come from a community perspective and say who is going to take the initiative to start drawing this organic ecosystem together? So if I'm out there with an artist doing something I have a resource to say yes to your question about endorsement. It does not become an endorsement issue, if he awareness of where those resources are if I find myself in a gap. Once you do that it enables the military to keep into that and stash p -- peep into that and see how can be fulfilled on the other end of the spectrum. Creating an organic ecosystem where become self the filling and self-sustaining, and structurally they can be implanted. That is more of a long-term community engagement connection. 

>> and tomorrow will begin his movies break of groups -- when we get into these breakout groups, you can details of the networks you know or programs you know that will be helpful at tomorrow's breakouts. Doctor wong? 

>> in Boston we have the Boston arts Consortium for health. It is a grassroots group of about seven years of age now. We have people from Berklee school of music,  new ailing conservatory -- New England Conservatory. The Nero scientists know things clinicians need to know. Now the city is looking into his apartment -- into these departments. In addition there is a program at the VA call to my life, my story for the getting the stories of veterans and slipping it into the charts of the patients. It is a nonclinical story but it gives a lot more insight and empathy into that. I think the whole thing about getting stories across wide network is something that is replicable and other communities. 

>> Rebekah had a -- 

>> I just wanted to point out that the Boston arts Consortium for health is the acronym of bach. You were talking about acronyms today. Music nerd. Sorry. I want to go back to the continuum, a comment you are saying before the table and Dr. angle about whether or not it is art that is informing psychological health and behavioral health rounds, or whether is the musicians practicing organ music therapy and the are motivated. The arts are very powerful and very motivating. And just really understanding how we inform ourselves in the medical community, but how an art exhibit, a display, those strategic selected mass put into -- masks put into National Geographic. You really get to know that person. I think just tying into our artistry is visual artists, as theater, dancers, musicians, poets, writers, the power of performance and how we can use performance to really inform that gap we were talking about in the previous panel on the military-civilian gap. We can inform each other. We can inform veterans as participants or audience members and we can just inform communities at large. 

>> Judy? 

>> I just want to say I'm Judy Smith from access dance company in Oakland. I think there is a really big resource being missed here. It is the disability community. Especially for veterans with disabilities. In my experience is that the veterans are not taking advantage of the information and the wealth of knowledge available through independent living resources and other disability organizations. A lot of us have been living with this shit for 30, 40 years. We know a lot about how to navigate disability and how to navigate accessibility. So I would encourage people to start looking towards the disability community because we were in Siberia in 1995 and having issues getting my wheelchair batteries charged. Decided we would put them in a fiat and drive them around for the day and swap them out at night. Bonnie, one of our original founding members, actually said disability is the mother of invention. 

>> Very nice. Who is back here? Sorry, cannot see you. 

>> Thank you, Judy. I'm Madeleine from the Flint Center. I wanted to thank this group. It has really been the session that has blown it up out of the edges for me. I've been thinking a lot and having a hard time commenting because I don't deal like an expert in the military or veteran community. My father is a veteran, but I drag him to modern dance, so I've already got that. This was really the session that made me feel like it works for every community, not just military and veterans. And what Judy said, one thing we are working on at the Flynn is accessibility with different communities and different populations in the disability community. One thing we have been working on is audiences, kids and adults on the spectrum. One thing we have noticed is that all the adaptations and things we have done have made it wonderful for these populations but more inclusive for all of our audiences, so it has really become universal, become that ecosystem that you were talking about, that organic ecosystem that is growing, so I really wanted to thank everybody for this session that is starting to see out into all those other disenfranchised communities that we are trying to connect with. 

>> I would like to ask the group a question. This table started with the land acknowledgment and then sang the national anthem. I would love to hear responses. Yeah. 

>> It was really interesting to me because I'm a Rick Perry and, so every Friday, we have lunch, we sing "the Star-Spangled Banner, but I used to always sit next to a classical violinist from Paris. His father died in the camps. He and his brother escaped. The rest of the family was killed. We would sing that song and Dimitri would whisper in my ear when we got to the end, "almost." Whenever I hear "the Star-Spangled Banner," I hear Dimitri whisper in my ear. It's both a comment of condemnation but also of hope, that we are not there yet but we will get there. I want to thank you for letting us say that, but I know we all come to "the Star-Spangled Banner" with a lot of different feelings. 

>> That was a very difficult moment for me personally. As an indigenous person, I love the beauty of the song. I come from a family of singers, so the difficulty of that piece technically resonates with me very highly, but it was very difficult, and a think I was probably the only person in the room who did not stand. 

>> We didn't. 

>> Well, aside from -- who was physically able to stand and who did not stand because that was a moment of conflict for me personally. 

>> I acknowledge what you are saying, and I have that moment inside, too, although I did stand and I love to sing it, but the last time I sang it was last month in my own community during a large for Hanover March against the immigration ban, and as we ended the March and took over the entire Dartmouth Green holding hands, a gigantic circle, a young man in a beefed-up truck drove by with his windows open blasting that song, which we instantly all began to sing with him. 

>> I'm Rob Richter from Connecticut College. "The Star-Spangled Banner" -- I cannot remember the last time I have heard it or sung it, so it was jarring for me. And seated next toKita, I debated standing. It was a decision that had to be made. Looking around the room, hand too hard, I had my hands in my pocket. And unlike -- am I being inappropriate? It was an interesting, thought-provoking moment. 

>> Captain McGuire, can I ask you -- how did these comments or -- I mean, this must come up. How does this resonate for you? What would be your comment about it? 

>> Again, these are my own personal thoughts. I actually love it because, you know, someone mentioned I think earlier today or maybe it was Maurice the hesitation of expressing views that were contrary to the way they are presented through the military and that it might be unpatriotic. I thought to myself there's nothing more patriotic, right, then pushing and questioning. So for us, it is -- I do. I love singing. We sing all the time. I'm always looking for an opportunity to do it. Of course, we start all of our ceremonies with "the Star-Spangled Banner." It's just part of the military culture, but it's very true that a lot of people do not actively think about what that experience is like for other people. 

>> Am going to take it from you for a moment for someone who has not spoken. 

>> Romm the perspective of an army musician, I had been singing the national anthem for 11 years, and it came to a point in my career where it was like brushing your teeth. Something you do every day, like a ritual, and it just happens. There's no feelings. It's off the cuff. It just happens, so it was natural for a long time. If you were in uniform and you do not salute and do not recognize the flag during the anthem or when you are supposed to recognize a flag or render a hand salute, it's like burning a flag. It's totally taboo. You don't do it. You will get pinned down for it. Then I was a first responder in the Boston Marathon bombings, and three days later, I was forced to sing the national anthem at Fenway Park down the street with a crowd of people around me, and they announced that I was one of the first responders, and I'm in uniforms, just having all of these emotions because of what I had just been through, and since then -- since that day, it has never been the same for me. I struggle with being a person in the military and being in the civilian world with when I hear that, and it will never be the same again, and I'm sure a lot of the veterans in the room have the same experience. 

>> Can I get the microphone here? When here, when here, and then we will go back there and over there. 

>> Real quick, I've got a similar question about the liminality of being in the civilian world and being a veteran that you are still connected to the military through your past, but you are also living in the civilian world, so you have no real present world -- no real present claim on being military. Every time I hear "the Star-Spangled Banner," my question is -- do I put my hand on my heart? Do I salute? Where is my position on this? As a scholar and critical thinker, I have also got all of the indications of what "the Star-Spangled Banner" is for native, for African-American, for all of the different implications that it has over the colonial meanings, so there is -- it stirs up a lot of emotion, but at the same time, it is an automatic response at this point. It is something that I grew up with, and something that as a military person, every single day at 6:30, you were standing, waiting for reveille to go off and standing at attention and all these things that happened that kind of built these automatic responses in your body. So it is, it is a position of liminality that I have not quite digested yet. 

>> I did not expect this issue to come up here, but it's one of the hardest issues of my personal transition from servicemember, 22 years in the uniform, to being what I am today. One of the things, as retiree, we can wear our uniforms at formal functions and things and our ribbons, and I've made a decision to never wear the uniform again. I dedicated my life to serving in uniform and out of uniform and the military, yet, I don't feel I should ever wear the uniform again. I keep one in the closet for my funeral -- I don't know why, but I do. The other point about the national anthem was it was just a professional ritual. It was never a thought. Something that was part of the culture, the profession. I did an oath to that. Now I'm outside of my oath. I have since internalized that song -- I have faces of soldiers that I have known, loved, and fought with and died, and that song now is a testament to them, not necessarily what it was about the country or its founding. To me, that is a tribute song to three specific people, and that helps me get through that song and then honor it. I touch my heart because I am touching them, not doing a rote ritual. 

>> The reason I struggle with hierarchy is it is singular, and when it flips, it is still singular. I think what we are hearing here is each of us -- we are so much more than a singular. When things happen, how do we handle the multiplicity of who we are? You did not leave the room, you stated in the room. That, to me, is the expression of community. Not that we are all going to do the same thing at the same time in precisely the same way. It's that we agreed to be in here and work that out. I'm Jewish, raised by an adamantly ecstatic Jewish father who at Christmas time would say, "don't sing the Christmas carols . Just sit there." Then he relented and say we could sing but do not single word Jesus. This took, like, four years, and that I'm old enough. Some people remember when they added "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance. My father totally believed in God but not in schools, so we had to not say that part but we could say the other part. I see that as education and nuance and a commitment to participation. For me, the fact that people in this room wanted to sing that was such a beautiful thing. I felt that I could stand but I did not need to sing. This was the practice of living in this circular, horizontal world to allow us to be those multiple souls. 

>> My views on service and freedom have changed a bit since leaving the Army 10 years ago. I just have kind of grown to wonder, those who defend freedom, what those freedoms are, who those freedoms are for. I was part of the veterans for standing rock group that went to North Dakota in December. 

>> Thank you. [APPLAUSE] 

>> It was a very powerful experience. It felt like a hallowed ground. I don't know how to explain it. It was community on another level that I had never experienced before. One thing I noticed quickly was how patriotic the Native Americans, the Lakota -- I met indigents folks from all over the world, but they were extremely patriotic. I saw more Marine Corps hats at standing rock than any other veteran group or place I have ever been in. What I felt was this idea of coming together and what community means, so I felt that when we did that here. But this idea of questioning -- it makes me with my personal experiences wonder -- is that good or bad or right or wrong? I'm trying to make peace with the idea that questioning is OK. Just wanted to share that. 

>> I was surprised that that came up -- I'm sorry, did I step on -- that the song came up and that we were going to sing it and we sang it. I personally sing it and put my hand on my heart because my dad served in the military, and he was in Germany for four years and was in the Marine Corps reserve, but I wanted to say that I want to honor every single opinion on what happened in this room, and it is an example for me -- what hit me talking about this is this is a very clear, stark example, to put a more political terms what Liz just said, this is exactly the kind of forms -- forums we need to create out in the community outside of our arts community, where it is OK to not have the same opinion. We are not screaming at each other, but I completely respect the opinions of her. For me, it is united states of America, love it or leave it -- no, love it or change it. To your point, several times over the past day, and also to Colleen's point, it gave me some hope because that is the kind of discourse we should create everywhere we possibly can because healthy democracy means all these different voices. It was hopeful. 

>> I just want to thank you all for this experience of being in community. I just wanted to add that your question about the experience feels to me like one of those exercises of what it means to make art together. The singing in that moment is an enactment of a ritual in which, again, we have all had so many different experiences, but a catalyst then to bring us together in that very process of differentiation and sharing, so thank you for that. 

>> Can I just say one thing really quickly? The interesting thing is the original plan was for Rebecca and Melissa and I to sing, and then Lisa said, "oh, I've got my violin." We had even picked out the key, so we were not envisioning a sing along. So when everybody stood up, I was like, isn't this interesting?" And I think it is interesting. I think it happened exactly how it should have. I go to these incidents a lot. This has been one of the most significant and genuine experiences that I perhaps have ever had within the arts and military conversation. And it is hopeful because of that genuine quality that people can say exactly what they want, you know? That is patriotism, and it has been a beautiful experience. Thank you, everybody. 

>> We are going to break here. 

>> No, that's just me. 

>> We have to break here, so continue this conversation with each other, but part of the reason I wanted to make sure we discussed it is because it is really at the core part of how we are diverse in this room, even though we agree on the value of art. There are lots of different opinions about many things related to the subject. Thank you all for engaging the conversation. Thank you for your attention. [APPLAUSE] 

>> OK, folks, we are on a break until 3:00 p.m., but we are moving back into the orchard for another case study. 

>> good evening everyone. Take a deep breath. Just a moment to transition from that room, which was so full, to another full moment. I have the honor of introducing-based track live. This is the third of the three national theater project supported works that were some of the instigators for having these meetings. This means I don't have to be on stage anymore. Him one of the things I do in my role as director of theater and the national theater project is read as into reports. -- read presenter. -- read presenter reports. They were with vets and theatergoers and came together. That is a lot of reports. It was by far the longest twerp plan I had to track. -- longest tour plan I had to track. -based track was ---based track was performed from Pennsylvania and consistently present to audience members had the same comments, I wish more people have seen the show. This was regardless of whether or not the rooms were packed, and they couldn't fit anymore people. The comments that I read also emphasized the guards commitments and -- Making the stories more visible. This is one of the three national theater projects I didn't have the opportunity to see. Mainly because their hectic travel scheduled my own -- schedule rivaled my own. I will leave the discussion for after. Thank you. [APPLAUSE] 

>> high everybody. 

>> hi. First can I say I missed a lot unfortunately, I just want to make sure we give a shout out to me for best to -- shout out to NEFA. But do such great important work supporting us all. There come those moments in time that change your life. And they can come up unexpectedly. Based track -- Bass Track is one of those situations. I wasn't even sure I was going to go. I went and saw this workshop and it immediately spoke to me as something I needed to put my energies around. I started this in 1986 to create site-specific see that site-specific theater in New York City. I did a lot of out that a lot of large-scale outdoor work. --I did a lot of large-scale outdoor work. Around the theater for 13 years and went often became Executive Vice President of Disney, founding a global division to bring theater artists in to the parks worldwide. Then I had asked myself the question who am I now, what should I be doing, and -- For those of you who have been through transitions, you know that transitions are when you are in the muck. I saw Bass Track, and it was this beautiful story about war that was nuanced and had extraordinary music, and was about a photographer, and extraordinary photographer embedded in Afghanistan. And he took these photographs and he created a Facebook page and a website to enable military families to communicate with their loved ones. And then the composers and the originators of the idea had taken verbatim text from this website and created this multimedia 20 minute piece that was extraordinary. We were missing one very critical thing. Which was a director and an innovator and a collaborator. I had the good fortune to meet Seth Buckley, who has been in my life over to productions. We did a show called wilderness which is touring. 

>> as you can tell her vision is an inspiration and I came in not knowing Michelle or the composers or the photography and questioned but feeling tasks to find a story to take us through an evening work. We took a documentary approach. We sent a screenwriter out into across the United States. We interviewed young men who have been part of the particular Marine unit that was photographed in the original project Bass Track and followed up with them. We found a story and the story was the impact of war on families and we found one particular interview subject and his wife and we end up creating a documentary theater piece using their story as the specific on which to tell them more universal story about service, about war, about trauma and relationships and the impact of war on families. I wanted to share a piece and frame a little bit about what you are going to see today we ran into a problem where he started to write a play. That's where we started beating her head against the wall and it's like we are trying to write a play about AJ and Melissa and it became the miniseries soap opera. 

>> it was a mess for a while. 

>> when I realized is it had to start with the music. We created a piece that is very impressionistic and constructed almost like an album going from track to track, song to song, using the original track of the music to tell an impressionistic story, a tapestry of what this feels like to go through this kind of deployment, this kind of service, and this kind of return home afterwards. 

>> One other thing is we had two very important residencies for the development of peace, one was the University of Florida Gainesville and we did a residency with tight script in their hands. We had 1500 students come see the work, they all filled out questionnaires. He said we want to hear more from the families, so I went on Skype ended Skype interviews with the wives, which we then incorporated into the video design, which you will see. This was very personal for me that as a mom I thought to myself, what would it be like if my son walked into the door and said to me I'm going to war. It made me realize we spend so much time talking about vets. and we spend too little time talking about the people who are waiting for them back home and the war's impact on mothers and wives and husbands and brothers and sisters and what are they going through? We don't talk about them enough. Bass Track really tries to talk about the experience of four with the whole family. And we're fortunate enough to go to Arizona State University, they were fantastic. There are a couple of those folks sitting with us here in the audience. And in the welcome at the University of Austin Texas and went to 40 cities around the country. 

>> From a theater making point of view I want to acknowledge how important it was to have fully technical residencies, this is a multimedia piece. This is not people sitting around a table reading a script, this is video design. It really allowed for designers to be present and really loud to design at this stage. 

>> AJ's story is very interesting. He got married before he was deployed. While he was deployed his wife Melissa had a baby. When he was in Afghanistan he was wounded and then had to go back home. For a while he suffered from PTSD. Now he is doing very well. He went to college and we have kept in touch and one funny thing I do want to say, he came to the opening night of the show, as did Melissa, and AJ was sitting in the audience when Melissa was saying something and this was all verbatim. He said, I didn't say that, I can't believe she said that. It's quite something to meet the real performers and quite wonderful. 

>> Limit going to frame again what you're going to see this afternoon, you're going to see some of the archival video of the production. This is the story of AJ, Melissa, their marriage, you will also see some of the Skype videos any mention of wives of this -- of Marines from this unit. You are going to see bits of archival video from the show interspersed with live music performed by Kenneth Rodriguez. Then we're going to end with the final monologue. Thank you. 

>> thank you. ♪ ♪ 

>> and with the first Battalion of the Marines, I'm from Indiana. My age is 21. 

>> 23 years old, from Boston Massachusetts. , my name is Joshua Jackson. First court. -- first corps. 

>> Captain John Hamill. Bravo company. 

>> 26 years old. 

>> Richard Gilligan. 

>> Lance Corporal -- [INDISCERNIBLE] 

>> Lance Corporal, from Texas. No question about it, where the best. ♪ 

>> When I was in Afghanistan all I wanted to do was come back to America. Then when I got home to America there was this empty feeling. And then I want to just go back to Afghanistan 

>> I could see in his face he wants to talk about it but he doesn't want to talk about it so for me the minute he got back it was never the same. 

>> When you think of a Marine what do you think of? Do you think some of it kicking the doors with a rifle? You don't think a mechanic or cook as I wanted to do. I'm infantry. 

>> Bass Track was a website where these journalists posted photos and videos of these guys. Everybody was following it. When you have -- when you are the girlfriend you are important enough to know the Bass Track information but when you are married all your wives -- otherwise have your contact information. All the moms that have kids, it was such a bonding thing for us. Then you mean better and wives who have been through four or five deployments, death deployments. 

>> it was helpful to have that media there just so you knew they were OK. 

>> when you see people's Facebook pages that you are involved in or here these private little group chats and they are dropping like flies, you lose sleep and if the phone rings and the door knocks, whether it is pest control or the maintenance guy your heart stops beating thinking that's the guy come in to tell you he's not coming back. 

>> account remember who it was at this time. One of the lives -- one of the wives asked is it Mike? that wasn't my gonzo -- asked was it my gonzo? Mike Johnson dropped. That that -- my job just dropped. -- my jaw just dropped. I got a phone call from him and the first words out of his mouth were it wasn't me. 

>> a kind of reminds me of home. , more focused on hearts and minds than people. 

>> They want electricity and water. 

>> Is one of the most important jobs. 

>> People start to recognize you. 

>> Kind of reminds me at home. ♪ 

>> Put your wives down, you keep looking at me -- put your lives down. Put your lives down. You keep looking at me, don't you make a fucking sound. Their hands were still dirty. Now here's a friend i've got to bury. War stories, outlaws with no glory. I never go out, forever hold out, and even now, no doubt. Put your lives down, keep your wives down son. You keep looking at me, and don't you make a fucking sound. Which are lives down, keep your wives down, send. -- put your wives down, keep your wives down, son. 

>> they live in third houses, houses made of dirt. You open up of Bible and if there was a picture that's what you would see. There are two different types of stress out there, the stress of actually operating, you're constantly on guard, and then there is the other stress. They say you age a lot faster in the military for a lot of reasons. For us when Hernandez got killed , I believe -- if I ever did believe in God, I do now. You want to do it. 

>> ♪ listen to me his mind is like a war zone. Faye sweaty and full of sand. Listen to me, we try to see through these people. Keep it couple feedback -- keep a couple feet back. Put your lives down, keep your lives down son, you keep looking at me and don't you make a fucking sound. Put your lives down, keep your wives down son. You keep looking at me and don't you make a fucking sound. ♪ ♪ 

>> of got a baby girl on the way. 

>> Am trying to go back to school. 

>> Kind of thing it -- kind of thinking about getting out. Maybe criminal justice degree or something like that. If that doesn't work out maybe all just be a cop for the FBI or something like that. I was going down the side street theater the sky was a lot quicker than I thought he was and he cut up to me. I said will Marty go to jail it might as well pull over. He said where you going? Nowhere fast. He said have you been drinking tonight? . He said I'll be back in a minute. He comes back and says, so you are in the Marines? I said I was in the infantry. He said did you deploy to Afghanistan? I said yes it is Québec Afghanistan in March. He said step out of the car. Here we go. He said do you have PTSD? I haven't been officially diagnosed with it. He says you can't keep doing this, you need to fix yourself. 

>> Every day is worse and worse and worse to the point where the fan would blow the curtains and he would think in his sleep -- you would put his arm on me, draw his gun and get ready to shoot the dam window. I'm like if I scare him it will go off. If I try to stop him it is going to go off, if I don't try to stop him it is going to go off. AJ, you are asleep, that is the fan. You need to understand I am right here. You need to wake up. You are using the wrong resources to get better. You're going instructive route. -- going a destructive route. 

>> would you shut her up? 

>> You can't expect someone to code war and come back the same way they were. It's not terrible but it's small changes that maybe I would notice. 

>> You have to be careful what you say and how you present things. That instance is gone. If their whole way of thinking -- their whole way of thinking is different over there. 

>> We were told by a few different people if they are having a nightmare and you have to wake them up, don't be anywhere close to their face. He was having a nightmare and I touched the bottom of his foot. I thought he was going to startle awake, but he sat straight up. He jumped up and was out of breath. That blew my mind. Those the first time I had ever seen anything like that. 

>> they are young guys. They are not supposed to be going through all this. The brain is not quick to do this. To go do things like this is really confusing for them. 

>> These guys are taught to go and kill. They are trained to kill their enemy. They are taught it is good to do that. And they come home and they know they are not supposed to do those things at home. They know right from wrong, but that kill switches on. Howdy you turn that off? 

>> We tried to go to couples counseling, but we just brought up the past and how we hate each other and there's no fixing things. So I left. I have nothing. . I thought it wasn't going to get worse soy -- it was going to get worse so I thought to help with it. -- to Hell with it. And I started thinking about my daughter. My buddy Johnson, head of budget his pictures. On his memorial he had this blues picture. It was like it was scowling at me. I thought to myself this is a shady as way to repay my friend for dying for me. I went to the hospital and checked myself in. Exposure therapy, it's where they sit you down and where they hypnotize you. You close your eyes and then they tell your story of a traumatic event or whatever from the first person as you are doing it. It's like the matrix. If you think about that scene where Neil was like I need guns, all of a sudden the guns just show up. I need to be here and everything sort of falls. Your eyes are closed and you are telling it. The first couple of times I did it, she asks where are you? I said I'm on my base in Afghanistan. She says, what do you smell? I said I smell ship. What time is it? 

>> I'm on my truck, just kicking my boots, killing time and to my boys wake up. She says how do you feel? I said I swear to God I could see the moon. I'm cold and I could literally see my breath coming off it. It's kind of cool. Then you start getting in the bad shape. And that sucks. So you're sitting there and just telling you. You're forced to tell the same story over and over and over again. The idea is if you have a scab and you rip it off, it hurts. That a second time, it hurts. Then it's not so bad. Then it's not so bad. Then it just doesn't hurt anymore. You might have a little scar, but whatever. It worked. It literally saved my life. Then Melissa left me. Then I saw my doctor again. I went in there and I'm telling her that my wife just left me. This is over. My life is over. And she's just smiling at me the whole time and I look at her and say what do you think is so great that you have to smile about? And she said you don't see it yet but you start this because of her. 

>>I said yeah, for my family. She says she dumped you. Were you at a far getting drunk? No, you are coming to see me. It just hit me. She's right. I start telling her all these things that I've been running away from. The should I just kept bottled up. All of a sudden it just wasn't a big deal anymore. You may have a little scar, but it's just skin. ♪ [APPLAUSE] 

>> we thought we would have a bit of a conversation about [INAUDIBLE] Nope, We wanted to talk about some of the wonderful things that happened and some of the things that could be improved upon. And our partnerships with presenters. We wanted to show our process for me engagement point of view. I consider myself part of that fan club. One of the things I'm finding as I'm doing the social justice work is there is a rare bird who is not in the arts who really gets the power of the arts to impact social change. When you meet that person you hold onto them for dear life. So the director of military affairs of Kansas State and I got on the phone when we were talking about going to Kansas State and we became fast friends. Since then he has been a tireless advocate for Bass Track , working very closely with presenters and giving us tremendous fluidity within the military community and being a real guide for presenters to help them connect with their communities. 

>> it was an honor to be a part of this and still be a part of Bass Track. These are all novel things I have never really done before. There was an issue with the final script. Veterans demand accuracy, but a non-veteran audience would lose the story. I worked with a team and tried to broker how much accuracy and military jargon was important without losing the audience. I got involved in engaging in a veterans organization as a fellow veteran to ask them to go to the theater and support this work. I got in fault in fund-raising. -- involved in fund-raising. I found an evidence-based approach as to why this work is not just art, it promotes well-being and civic understanding. I provide some empirical basis that this work is grounded in good science. This is some of the marketing and promotion, outreach programs. I got to go to six cities and do the talk backs on stage, got to organize and participate. Some of the public engagements, particularly students in theaters, that was very rewarding. Those were some of the things, a laundry list of others I was involved with. I want to do this more. 

>> Chris went to the 15 cities. The actor was a different actor and veteran. Chris took over for him. I would like this to be interactive. I'm presuming it's safe to say everybody in here deeply cares about the world and using the arts for social change. There are a lot of smart people here and it's a lot of hard work. It was hard for us to get audiences. Some places we were more successful than others. One of my favorite moments was one 750 students came to Rice Hall. I asked how many of the students had loved ones who had been in the service? three quarters of them raised their hands. I asked how many of them have the funds were willing to talk about it. Almost no one raised their hands. Those are the kind of moments that keep you going. I wanted to do a little exercise. And the exercises on going to start it with the sentence that says I wish I could, with regard to engagement and bringing these kinds of shows to your theaters. I will start it and I would like you all to continue. For me it would be I wish I could stage -- I wish I could stay longer in the city to develop relationships more fully. 

>> The fact you are able to convey exposure therapy so well, it is a brutal treatment. The fact you use the matrix analogy, we use it often with our soldiers who stepped outside the box and asking them to come back in. The metaphor is beautiful. 

>> We can talk. 

>> I wish I could have brought you to Dallas Texas. I think it was early in my 10 year and we were talking about coping Zen thing. I think at a time they were very transactional. It quickly brought it down to audience and the ability to sell tickets. I don't know if they ever had a chance to talk to you about the things you can do. But I don't know if they were open to it at the time. That has since changed a little bit. But that is my answer. 

>> I wish I could help you, Bass Track, help us -- help them help us all. 

>> I would like to thank you for your compliments, but I would love to hear tactically and strategically how one might make a difference in terms of trying to shake loose the tree in little bit with trying to make these kinds of shows happen beyond Bass Track. I love to show by the way, it was beautiful. 

>> On going to enter the wish thing. I wish I could translate better, because a lot of this is about translating from one field to another field. I think it's important not only to have this work but these kinds of works. I think tactically what I'm getting out of the feedback from the group is we need more time and we need to figure out ways -- what can we do, where do we help? Multiple trips to Atlanta, multiple bodies in the room. Not just me, not just you. We go as a collective to start a conversation years before a show ever appears. That is something I was trying to set up of our would love to continue that conversation. 

>> The way I got connected to Bass Track was through kind of a business pursuit. It was because of something I was developing to connect audiences. The thing I've learned going to this process with them was kind of the production source. We look at the arts as we try to connect to audiences. Problem is I think we try to do everything on the tail end. You frontload all the cost and the expenditures on the front end, then you only start reaching out at the tail end. The problem with that is it lends itself to a distribution model. We have to bring people to the product. AsYou can't export the product like you do a movie. There is so much value. You're the first person, because I've been trying to push this as an idea, thank you for being someone to say that. There's no reason we shouldn't be opening up this part of the process. Where do we find the real long-term satisfactions? there is value there. Why aren't we inviting audiences in to watch our rehearsals? I understand safe space, I've heard it. But a gentleman argued we need a space that need a safe space and we said -- we need a safe space and we said fuck that. Who should be opening of the addition process, every opportunity. You can start developing interest and start developing word-of-mouth marketing. You can start developing an audience even before there is a product. They will see what you're doing bring it in there. This is the part I hate to say the finesse artists and the simple fact is if you have the end of the show, I know you are waste it, I know it is that of the exhaust. Life of a show to affect like this? you have to be willing to talk about the emotion you left gunshot on the floor before my not get it, the fair. Not once did have a talk back Russian that Peter doubt naturally. We had to shut out every top fax session because everyone was so engaged in wanting to talk about it. I can't ever talk to Brad Pitt or Samuel L Jackson and ask what it is like making that movie. We can do that and we have to let them do that. 

>> We talked about the purpose of presenting veterans. Here is just a quick list of the issues in Bass Track that we brought into the discussion community. Ages decision to and the military. Re-socialization and institutionalization into the unique social culture of the military. Bombing with his peers -- bonding with his peers. We see a temporary social network culture because of Facebook and social media on the battle. Ages experience in actual modern combat is a new Way of war, living through loss and reporting of loss through comrades -- loss of comrades. Psychological impacts of rapid archer from the unit, life-changing transitions after being invested and identified. Issue personal path of untreated PTSD. Those were the issues that came out mostly from the audience, there were dressed beautifully. 

>> 

>> We had an amazing -- 

>> We had an amazing experience. We in the presenting field can lend credibility to your work, to all this work to say not only is it important in engaging and connecting our communities, but it is just plain great theater. I think more people will take a chance. 

>> I want to answer the question, I wish we could. I'm a teacher and I work in higher education. I know many of the presenters are affiliated with institutions of higher education. I wish we could integrate the arts into the educational experience holistically. So that art is not this pedestal, it is not as weird thing that the artsy students do , it is part of your overall educational experience. We were really inspired by what happened at the University of Florida. As any said, we had determined his fortune of ringing in hundreds of death of bringing in -- fortune of bringing in hundreds of graduates. This program that allows freshmen to -- it asks these big questions about what am I doing with my life and what is the good life? I find that really inspiring not only because students are asking big questions at a young age, and some include veterans who are coming into the University system after their service. The fact that the arts was just part of that course and it was casually integrated into that curriculum, I find it incredibly inspiring. I think bringing more folks into work like this is embedded more carefully and deeply into educational programming and academic programming. 

>> I do want to say one thing. Michael Bletchley told me the reason he was able to do this program is because he was supported by the highest echelons of the school. It was the president of the school who signed on for this. 

>> I want to echo a lot of what you have been saying. A lot of our audiences say why isn't everybody seeing this? we have good audiences and in some places we don't and mediocre audiences in other places. The places we have the most success is where we went to Stanford University and had a similar engagement with a freshmen class that was an arts and immersion class. They broaden students from every discipline to experience the arts. They took diversity of classes together and it was all centered around the arts. We did a workshop in the morning and they wanted to come and see the performance. I wish more presenters would help us with the legwork to get those things happening in order to bring more people to see the work. 

>> This is my first gig at this level, I find out you have to rely on the venues when you are touring to do that. 

>> I'm curious, how many presenters are in the room? And how many of you feel like you have the time and resources to do the advanced legwork you need to do for these kinds of shows? 

>> this is Liz, can't I speak to this for just a minute? I want to respond to your articulation of process as being an engagement necessity. It's what I was attempting to say yesterday but I have a slight cautionary tale here. And that is if you truly for the hierarchy you cannot privilege the performance to the engagement activities that are taking place. What we want to understand is you to the engagement because art matters. Because these stories matter and connecting to my neighborhood school matters. Working alongside people like the other presenters here, this may account -- this may accumulate to an audience. It's not because they haven't gone to know us comment because something happened. And yes because these are in the amazing programs. If we make it be about that, there is a slight feel of exportation. There is something that is often is not entirely there. I have done engagement work my entire life. I only know this to my experience and the times I didn't do that. I'm not sure about that. 

>> I don't think I pick up where you are laying down to 

>> it can't and will touring engagements of the people will come see us when we come back and read big shows. 

>> No, you do it because -- it is a fantastic video. You don't; to get people here, the place has to come in. 

>> as he them better? 

>> it is a street to -- 

>> it is definitely a two way street. Filling seats as a side effect. You don't hope you make money. 

>> I'm not sure I agree with either of you totally. With all due respect because I think you do beautiful work. I'm an artist, I'm not a social worker. I'm not an expert, not a military expert. The way I have chosen to reach out and impact the world is through my work. This pieces comprised of a verbatim text. I have worked with presenters successfully as possible and trying to engage the community. And where the presenters have more funding and staffing, they can create ongoing programs. The work is what I give to my audience and hopefully working with people through art, and hopefully with the presenters being so successful, givers of that work, host of that work it can be a meaningful experience. 

>> I'm going to take us off track. I wanted to talk to the rap artist behind the table. You are such a bad sddass. That was awesome. I wanted to adjust the comment you made about bringing art back to school. I feel strongly about that comment partially because I have six children and I have seen along the way. Just the idea of bringing it back in, we have yoga therapists. One of the key things they do is work with the breath. They don't bring the breath in. They acknowledged the breath that is already there. I feel it art is the same thing. You just need to acknowledge it. 

>> This is going 

>> yes, I would like to send the educational component and resource component, has there been any thought of possibly putting together a virtual production? 

>> we see this as a multimedia work, but it is a live performance. This is the intention of the work. For me, this piece at least, at its heart is a theater work, and what I mean by that is that is simply about human beings together in a room hearing a story told by other human beings, so for me the human element as it were cannot be reduced away. That is my take as a theater artist. I feel that life music and life acting is essential. Yeah. 

>> I would just like to conclude by thanking everyone who participated and to say at the center of this work and every work I do is about crossing the divide and trying to get out of the echo chamber so much of our work is in. I went to a mental health conference and ask the room how many had heard of documentary theater, and not one person raised their hand. To me, that is the greatest urgency, how to jump the fence and reach across the divide. I hope we can also pour one another in trying to do that in our own way. Thank you. And 

>> everyone could take their seats. Thank you. 

>> this is the last of these fishbowl tables. Before we end this whole process, I want to do one embarrassing thing, and that is to say very specifically, thank you Jamie for making sure we got where we needed to be. [APPLAUSE] 

>> that way we were sitting where we were sitting and we knew what we're doing when we got there. Thank you very much. Alright, so this is the last of these tables, and we have and listening for the better part of a day and a half now to this conversation, and I just want to encourage everyone on the listening circle to take their seats. I will call out Bill O'Brien on livestream. I can do that. Bill knows too much about me. So, thank you everybody. So we are going to very quickly go around. This table is all folks who are in part of this conversation about the presentation of their work, and so we will go around and do our names, organizational affiliation, then name a project we are involved with, have in involved with, that relates to the topic of these days. For a couple of people, there is not a project to be named, and that is the part of the conversation we are having. We will do 45 minutes at the table, then moved to the larger -- if some if some of the conversation has not surfaced here, we will take it there. This is a huge area, and Michael is to get as many of the themes and discussion topics on the table as possible so that when we moved to the larger group, we are looking at as much as, and can practice. Thank you. Let's go ahead and start in this direction. 

>> I am Madeline Bell at the Flynn Center. We presented axis dance company. -- access dance company. 

>> I am Ruth. We did a series of performances in the spring of 2015. 

>> I am Robert Richter, and we have not engaged in a project in this area. 

>> I am Colleen Jennings-Roggensack. Of the many programs we have done, veterans holding it down, of veterans dream project. 

>> great. Thank you. 

>> I am Michael Reed. I'm the director of programs. Carpetbag theater, speed killed my cousin, this fall we presented. 

>> I am Carla Peterson. I also want to say I was for 25 years basically in presenting. In spite of that, I'm going to say I have not been involved in a project like this. However, I inherited a beautiful project, healing wars. I came in her second presidency after three trip she and her company made. 

>> I am Ty Furman. Last spring, he had a theater in residence, and does a piece of that, we presented an original new piece and the style of the Japanese war your play. It was written by one of our faculty members about her experience with her and her husband, who was a fighter pilot. 

>> so, Clyde Valentin, Southern Methodist University school of arts. The project, it is not a straight theater project or multidisciplined project, but an initiative of our innovation Lab. We have 34 members as part of the lab. One is farmers assisting returning military. Within that group, we have producers, policy people, artists, educators, and health care workers. So I just want to throw that into the room. 

>> I am Margaret Lawrence. We have done a number of these projects, but the one I'm hoping to talk about is one where we are trying to have an ongoing institutionalized partnership, so I will call it the community venture initiative. 

>> great. Thank you for that. Keeping with this earlier theme of honor ability and the areas where we are not expert, I want to start with Rob and Carla. What are the things that are resonating for you to draw you closer to wanting to engage the work, and one of the things that challenge you most deeply as you think about it? 

>> I will start. I had a desire to do this, some of this work. I saw an early version of Basetrack and was very engaged in very interested. I am in a military community, a naval community. And come up but I don't want to do a one off. I want to have some continuity within the community. We are a small program. We percent of very diverse program, but it is me. It is me doing, creating the engagement, choosing the artists , picking them up at the hotel. So, developing the marketing plan, so, so that capacity to really engage that community, and a variety of different communities come in the way I think it needs to be engaged and to have a continuity. It's not just we did that this year, and 10 years later we do something else. To me, that is a disservice to the community, to the work, to so many things. But I am finding ways, and even when I was asked, when Jane contacted me to come. I said, all right, in what capacity? I am a presenter. I am an advisor to the national theater project. I am on the board of the regional cultural coalition in working with military communities in that way and she said, well, all. I said as long as I know how many hats to bring. So I am beginning to see ways throughout cultural coalition and contacts. Somebody else on the board is with the office of military affairs, so I'm beginning to make those contacts. So it has been great to hear of the various projects and techniques and things, and also confirming for myself that the continuity is important. 

>> Carla? 

>> just a couple of different reasons why I think I am interested. I am not a present or. or. I am someone who supports the development of work. I have been in the field for a long time and watch history change politically, historically, socially, culturally, but in terms of being here now and what is happening in this country, and is not the only good reason one should engage with this, but it is, and I know we are always talking about this, what we are doing here is not political, but it is political for me, and that is while this is going on, in addition to making phone calls to your congressperson, what can you do in the field in which you work in terms of art and the making of art and bringing art and audiences somehow or another together in meaningful ways. This seems like an absolute necessity to get connected to. And also because being in the field for a long time, it is a gift to work in this field, and I have had such an opportunity to engage in so many different kinds of things, but not this. I have never been in a room like this. I did it again. I have never, ever been in a room like this, and I'm trying to rock my brains whether I've actually sat down and had a meaningful conversation with the vet. It has not been part of my universe, and it seems that that is the thing I need to do. In terms of how to do it, again, I am not a presenter. I have two underscore which are are saying in terms of what you are saying and knowing other community engagement work. The capacity is about time, building trust. You cannot just go in and out. And how to do that while still dealing with the work I'm supposed to be doing, the reason I got hired supposedly for the position I am running, so it has to do with that, but I also want to say that maybe there is a way , and that is I do have a resource. I think the way Jennifer, my predecessor, worked with Liz Lerman in identifying how to bring members of the community and vets and family members in the process. She can talk about all of this and much more detail and more accurately than I can come of it having to more residency so there was still time to beat in that community as opposed to somebody coming in and out. That is something I can't in view -- I can do. 

>> I want to answer that question too. We are a young center, two years old, and we don't have a long history of presenting. When I came in, I had a series of themes that I wanted to tackle, food being one of them, which is why this project is coming to fortune. The military was not one of them. And I think that was for a lot of reasons. We touched on some of those earlier today, the conflicting nature of even our anthem. At the same time, that we begin to relocate to Dallas, Texas, the closest I have to a son was my young brother and we helped to raise him. Instead of going to college, he decided he was going to enlist in the military. We became a military family. We were at his first leave when he was in training camp before Thanksgiving and had a Thanksgiving dinner. We flew the family down for graduation from training camp. We made sure we attended his reenlistment ceremony, so we are invested because he is our son, our brother come and we love him, and we want them to know he is not alone. in the decision he made, so it is deeply personal to me. The way I know how to make work, it is not a one-off, to your point, right? I am here listening, learning, and thinking deeply about what that sustained engagement looks like, because that's the only way I know. 

>> can I ask you, Colleen, Michael -- I'm sorry, we will come back to this. I want to pull a little bit. What are the core competencies? You guys have a long history over many projects in this work. What are the core competencies you have had to develop personally and in your staff to create the kinds of authenticity in the work that Rob and Carla are talking about being a first hurdle? 

>> one of the things that goes back to, the organization's 52 years old. I have been the director for 24 of those 52 years. Over that time come the staff collectively discussed and developed our mission. Our mission is connecting communities. And then we identify those missions, those communities, and stay true to them. I am a military brat. Of course, the military was going to be one of those. We live in a state where there are many military bases, National Guard, Air Force, etc., but the core competency was understanding the work that we do is connected back to our community, that those communities are not monolithic, so they must connect to a multiplicity of communities, so we are connected to the Latino communities, the African-American communities, Jewish communities. All of those communities are represented in the military, so that was important. The other thing that was critical was return on investment. We had to redefine what that means, very large organization, $19 million organization. We get no support from the University or the state. We make it. We raise it. We earn it. Then we had to say what is the return on investment in doing this work. I think it was stated earlier that it is not, the return on investment is not dollars or having butts in seats, but it is about creating partnerships, sustaining partnerships, addressing issues that have concern over a broad group of communities. Those are our returns on investment that we look at. We don't look at the dollars. We do look at how we pay for it. So in those partnerships, something ann just brought up, what are those guys going through. We found we had partners in the military, the U.S. Army foundation supports our work as do the blue Star moms. Senator John McCain and Cindy McCain are not only active supporters of our work, but financially support our work. The Arizona lottery, we were the only cultural organization that they have given multiple years of funding to for this work in particular, see you can develop partnerships. I went out to an Air Force base to meet with the general and just talk about what we hoped to do over a long period of time. Like any partners, there was skepticism, but we kept doing it. 

>> core competencies, so I have been in the organization 22 years. From a very structured background in the arts as a classical ballet dancer. So what I have seen that has been successful over the years is the consistency, is also in the case -- I will go to speed killed my cousin and carpet back, we had done two years prior multimedia projects. We had also had for at least 15 years, really solid, ongoing programs to support military families, to come to our theaters, some not the same type of interaction, but very important relationships that were already there. A real trust. 

>> what kind of programs, Michael? And you describe the programs? 

>> this is an interesting one. 10 years ago, we started from the Broadway league, they started a program they funded in the beginning across the country. 

>> that is the league of Broadway producers, professional association of theaters and producers on Broadway. 

>> it was family first night, the name of the program. We were the only partner that decided we are calling it military family first night, so we focused on those military partnerships that Colleen had spoken of with Luke and others, Arizona Army National Guard, an important one, and that's when we came upon the National Guard. Because those families were not trained to be Marines. They were trained to help in national disasters or floods and all of a sudden they are doing three tours of duty in Iraq. So those families we felt there was a structure in place. We had a good partnership from them coming to other shows. So that was one of the first ongoing programs, still going. We have had probably a 20 year program with the national organization that in an organized way gives tickets to veterans and veterans families. So calling on those partnerships , in the early, early conversations with Linda, and some of our campus partners like the Tillman center on campus were key, because knowing what you don't know, even though we had done these other military themed projects, carpetbag was interested in having very real interaction with PTSD vets, and I knew that OK, I need to talk to some of these fats on campus and see what their take was and do they want to be involved in this or not? Do they want to see a theater piece like this or not? I did that listening tour, talked with our partners. All of that help us form the most respectful and impactful approach to creating the residency. 

>> thank you. Great. Margaret? 

>> so we have done several of these large projects, and actually out of an older three-year program initiative that was part of creative campus called class divide, we had developed an ongoing relationship with military and a more institutional way, so we have been trying to grow that, and now through I guess another version of that initiative that we hope will be permanent -- we are in a small rural community. Our town is 10,000 people and we are surrounded by small villages, so we don't have most of those large organizations. What we do have is the V.A. and a small undergraduate veterans associations on campus, maybe like 25 students. Our relationship is primarily with theva, and this is a way to make us more accessible to them. I guess the competencies would be learning points for us about that way of working. And I don't mean that what, I don't think this is what anybody has mentioned so far, but sometimes organizations provide tickets to things they know are not, you know -- nobody here has said that, but rather than do that, we establish a bank account for the va that they va that they can spend on anything. What we have learned by partnering with them is that several points. One is obviously as has been said before, the veterans are not monolithic at all. Many have traveled internationally must some have never been anywhere. Some have never been on a plane. Many have never been on a campus, so it is take that risk of coming outside their comfort level. The V.A. is very bureaucratic, and things that seem like I priority to us may be superseded by much more important priorities for them, so it does take Haitians to understand that process. Some of our biggest successes have been moments when we have something we can bring to them physically, something like combat paper project, where they can get their hands on something and point to a result that comes out of this. They especially like moments of very clear instructions, so the recording at the beginning of the show about what to do, the veterans love it, because it is clear. It is like, here are the instructions. Something I was talking about earlier that is a challenge and maybe we can come back to is they do not see this as a charity, and having dedicated a career to service, they really are now starting to ask how they can give back to us, and we are challenged by this because we have never been asked that before, so it is very interesting. 

>> yeah, I was going to follow up similar to what Clyde was saying. We are a fairly new presenting organization and opened in the fall of 2013 and are just establishing some consistency in developing work around veterans come around military service. Virginia Tech has a military history and background. We have 1000 students in the corps, about 75% gone to active-duty service, so that is an element there. When I think about Liz Lerman and the heating wars, Liz first came to our campus before our new arts center was opened, and it was really in the context of science and research because we have a phenomenal research Institute, so we have these amazing brain researchers, so that was our initial conversation and the reason we brought Liz and was to meet with the faculty and the researchers there, and I think that one of the keys and it grew and developed and we have an amazing center for studies, this military history, so we found a lot of different layers. As I have been sitting here now for two bays trying to figure out what is our intention, motivation if we pursue this. I don't think it can be singularly that we want to be working with veterans or the military service. It needs to intersect with these other areas, health sciences, creative technologies, the different ways that artists are working to bring this work for it, but as I'm trying to process all of this here and I think that will be essential for our university. We can afford because of capacity issues to have one staff person focused on this for three years and just this. We have community engagement happening on a lot of different levels and we need to pay attention to those levels. 

>> I want to ask you to go at little bit further. First of all, how do you know what you don't know? If you have an idea about that, what do you need, what gaps aren't there in your capacity, to pursue this? As you look at it, what would be your caps off this point -- gaps at this point? 

>> we, I mean myself, our staff, myself as a presenting organization, what are we trying to accomplish with this? Who is the audience? We have those who participate, and we have outstanding student veterans that participated in interviews, a compelling evening that we all spent together. That is one aspect, but there is this larger audience in healing wars, and we also presented Basetrack and got some great reaction around that. The general public coming into this work, it was much more difficult. 

>> where did those engagements take place with Basetrack? With a part of the performance? 

>> we did a workshop the night before the performance. 

>> during the residency? 

>> we were doing some advance work. We have a terrific group, so we have all these people we connected with, so I felt like there was a small group that was very engaged in all of these projects and benefited, but then there was that larger public. It is the same public I have to say when you go to the football game and it is veterans appreciation game day and we have the camouflage jerseys on and everyone -- they won't come to see a theater piece about a Marines experience or see something historical. 

>> I think it is one of the things, you asked about core competencies. A lot of those we learned on the way, and then where we hit a wall and felt like we were in territory we did not know, we went to the Pat Tillman center and we hired one of their best people to come and work with us on this, but on other things as well. 

>> the Pat Tillman center is? 

>> we have the largest ROTC in the country. We were ranked the number one most military friendly, and it is a center for returning vets. We are actually involved in moving the center, we are redoing our state. We are putting 300 million dollars into the football stadium, but we will turn it into a 365 day a year facility, and we wanted the vets to be up front and center. The welcomeThey are welcome at the University. We looked at those partners who go to football games, and actually are athletic director Ray Anderson, who is amazing -- I absolutely love him. He said, you know, I want to have something called the senior experience. I want to have every athlete who is a senior, and we have thousands of them come and not graduate without having a strong cultural experience. So as we talked about that, we said what should their first experience be? And it was black angels over Tuskegee, the story of the Tuskegee airmen, and he said because it is about leadership, gutting it out, teamwork, all of these things, one of the things, the captain of the basketball team stood up and said, she is an African-American woman, I don't know who the Tuskegee were. I have never been in the theater before. This was the most important experience of my four years here. So we knew that was a group to engage, because yes, they are there for veterans, so how do we get them into the theater? We will bring Pat Tillman to them. 

>> as you look at your own interest in the work in history with the work, what are the gaps for you that you see, that you heard about today that might be resonating for you for ways to fill them? What struggles do you have? 

>> so I think, I have been looking around and one thing I realize this week are the only standalone presenter not based at an institute of higher education, and that has been a gap in capacity for us most definitely. I think we have had to engage the University in different ways. We actually did like angels over Tuskegee as well, and the way that came to us was not to veterans in the military community, but through multicultural affairs and diversity at the University of Vermont. And so that was a way that we were able to then invite the Vermont National Guard and their families to black angels so we got that multiplicity. We got multiplicity with the veteran community, the military community, the University professors and students and connected it to curriculum. So we are making up for those cap sink capacity by coming in from a different angle. I think also we have talked a lot about process versus product, and it is hard for a lot of us here I think to think of, we are trained to think about product, about the end show and the in the number of tickets you are selling, so really trying to do from an internal standpoint change that in our own organization, focusing on process, letting other people in your organization no that the process is also the product. I think for me as a cap that -- gap that we are trying to fill definitely. I am not a presenting center. I am an academic unit. I don't have to fill a season. I get to do one really big project as best we can with the resources we have come and I don't have to sell tickets. So the vast majority -- [LAUGHTER] 

>> I know. It has given us a lot of freedom, but there are so few come so I do one a semester, that I am trying to meet the needs of faculty across the University, so we had a fantastic experience with the project read years ago, but we can't justify bringing them back because I have to do dance or film or -- 

>> not only that, but the continuity. As we were saying and hearing all the time it is not a one off. It is not a hit and run kind of thing, and yet in the course of our work there are choices that have to be made about how many there are, and that is a trade-off. I have another question, and maybe this has come up in your work or maybe it hasn't yet, but in terms of some of the stuff that you have heard in the room, the last couple of days, about the risks around trauma, the sense of the cultural differences, all of those risks that we have identified, in particular, and we will hear from you guys really, let's hear some of the learnings you have had as well, how are you currently position to take responsibility for those risks and what is your sense of competence there? 

>> can I just jump in and in terms of something I have been thinking about in terms of the cultural differences, and we are not dealing with the risk of for our audience yet come a but across the street from us is the U.S. Coast Guard Academy, and I would love to have the cadets,. Early on we had a performance, I think it was Gilbert and Sullivan early in my years there, and two cadets came to the box office and they did not have enough cash with them or something like that, and I chased them and said, no, no, command. I will let you in. I will give you free tickets. I have the capacity to give you free tickets. And they wouldn't do it, and I think it was a cultural thing. And you know we are the liberal, you know, the liberal arts college on the hill, and we were and all women's college, there was a lot more mixing between the cadets and the women, but that does not happen anymore, so there is that cultural barrier, and my other experience with the military community coming to our events was, this was one of my first years of the college, and we had a piano Trio, classical, great musicians come beautiful women with great photographs. Our audience was more than 50% single men from the submarine base. [LAUGHTER] 

>> let me ask you, Robert -- 

>> so these cultural differences and I want to get deeper, but -- 

>> I will take it one more step in with you. Why does it matter if they come to your theater? 

>> to me it matters because they are an important part of our community. They are part of our community, and this is actually also gets at my hesitation sometimes, because am I just wanting to do this because this is -- and I don't know. That isn't for me. I come a my choice for drama or comedy, I go to drama. I have done a lot of work in the prison systems and working with female inmates and male inmates, and they wanted to do the heavy trauma, and I wanted to do, so these are stories that are part of our community, and I want to expose our student community to this community. I want to diversify their experience, and that is just part of me. I have always been -- 

>> go ahead. 

>> you are touching on the approach to some of this material to can be sensitive. Again, I see this on the same spectrum and trajectory as the work we are doing with non-veteran communities, and you and I were just together in an international theater project, I am still meeting with students who still have feelings about some possible triggers with some very challenging heater work we did in January, so I don't see these as all that different in terms of the time and the thought that needs to go into, not just telling something we think they want to come to and take care of in terms of triggers they have, but helping them understand what we have and then allowing them to choose what they may want to see, and one of the big revelations for the educational staff at the V.A. was they did not just want to see reentry, but they did, they didn't, they wanted to see African drumming because they never had seen it. Some of them had traveled in Europe and wanted to see classical music, so getting away from this monolithic, but also remembering the time and the thought that needs to go into helping people understand what it is that we are inviting them to. 

>> in addition to military family, we do operation date night and heroes night, so with heroes night, we honor World War II veterans. We honored wmd servicemen and women and working dogs. We say -- we have a rule, a three question rule. What you want? What a why want -- do I want? What we want together? We save what you want? What do I want? What we want together? And we work on that sweet spot. Some of the things are mutually together, and some of the things are different, just as yes, they loved come to see holding it down, they also loved coming to see white Christmas. It was a big night. We had 300 families there, and it was a Broadway show and a big-ticket item, so it is about not treating the group as money lithic. It is about the notion of communities come across communities, taking sure there is integration. 

>> we have heard a lot about, there has been a sense of being careful about the work, the audiences, about the veterans you are inviting in, and how are you careful? How are you not come in a way, how far is that overboard for you? What is your sense of that? 

>> this is a good segue to what we were talking about. 18 years ago, we started a program for women that is still going with local artists. It was called keeping the faith then. It has been going on for 17 years. That was a first step for me where I knew I was wait out of my depth as far as what do I know about this culture, zilch. So let me work with an artist really does. Let's fine artists who have the capabilities and are passionate. So that happened. Coming across the right personality which is -- Sheriff Joe Arpaio. At the time, so Pat wanted him to be in one of his facilities. We found the right person to do it. The point is that was the jumping off point for when to know to be really smart. Careful is another word for it, but we did a piece with a company, a dance company from Senegal about their one-day genocide. We had for wand and -- Rwandan refugees come and they became part of that residency. I think it is having advanced conversations and letting the artist lead to, like we let carpetbag lead us. They I guess it is going on an investigation to our -- tour. Are in their specific communities. What those different opinions are, and how to approach respecting all of those opinions and still programming a residency that is impactful. That can be tricky. It is never perfect. That is for sure. 

>> I have a couple of more themes I went to get out. Margaret, you raised this. Anyone can jump in. You talked about your interest in this work as something that has a different dimension in quality, you have a different expectation. Someone else said that the art needs to be valid as art as well as valid in service of whatever the goal is worried I wonder how you are all feeling about this. I do not want there to be a consensus, I hope there is not just a yes or no answer. When you are doing this particular work, not any work, but this particular work, what are the goals? When of the goals and impact, are they in that leading, I am really pulling on you all day. In that image she gave us. Let's talk about quality. Let Carla talk. Sorry. I will get you there for sure. [Laughter] 

>> that is a hard one. That is something we have to grapple with we have to put up with that all the time. If we do not, we are not bringing people into the conversation. We are challenging how we are making our distinction about what is quality and not. There is no, I would just say there is no personal and professional growth and how we are serving who we are serving. I am not trying to get around the question but it is a question I still find it difficult. 

>> is quality in fixed point?\ 

>> no. It is within context. 

>> quality and context. 

>> who is defining it>? 

>> what the journey is going to be. What is happening along that journey. You are coming along for the people who have experienced this with artists in the field and community, are you finding, what is the conversation there? 

>> I feel very strongly that we present quality art. He does not go on our stage. I feel very strongly about the artists that have worked on this process. They are exquisite artists, artists that we would dedicate time and resource to. Artists that may not have the resources we need and we can try to figure out if we can give them more resources. It is more important for us to have a premier, we can have someone come here and spend as much time as they need to get it right. That is important to us, this is art. I am very, I am very serious about this. 

>> how do you know when it is art? 

>> heart, head, guts. 

>> I start by approaching something with education first grade -- first. We have had projects that I have not always felt were exceptional, there was a lot of learning that happened. I had that privilege of not worrying about selling seats but also filling the house. I am sure people would want to experience it. It is a hard line for me. The one that I mentioned, English language noh theater. We presented when peace in traditional English, and what these in the style of. We had no clue how that was going to go. They fully it was received very well, in particular it was received very well by the academic community. This is a piece we should be exploring. 

>> why did you start exploring their? 

>> what are the ways I bring projects in is because the faculty bring this to me. This is what happened. I have a faculty member who said I saw what you did with that, we like that model. I have a company you would like to work with you the company is international and well-respected. It is not, it is not a reputation of a touring community. 

>> really quickly I know we look it a bigger conversation, I hope Chris is still here. She has something that relates to aesthetics that is all. 

>> time is supposed to look. There is nobody out there. 

>> anybody take this please. There is a tendency to run towards trauma or drama, run towards the fix it. That was described as something artists are drawn to, we are delegates from a much larger field of practice. We are not talking just only to ourselves or about ourselves. How is your response as a presenter to that? That is a provocative statement. 

>> if I'm catching this, I love the idea of this statement earlier that those who are veterans have a advantage in understanding the human condition when I think about us doing this work and bringing the part of a community that does not have any connection to bring that audience to understand it more fully that is what I want. Yes, to have variances great, it is the great wash of people who are connected. I like going into it that way and this is the disadvantaged of our community. The same way we had international artists and they had global connections and global diversity. There was understanding that they bring to the table, I think it is the same thing. I enjoy that. 

>> I think it is all about recognizing and appreciating what has value in performance. As well as how veterans have a perspective we can learn from, that can be true for someone who is from Dallas or someone who was born and raised in the city who knows the transportation system better than someone who does not have that privilege. I think what we tried to do is foster spaces where that learning can happen, that mutuality can happen. To the trauma question, what we lean towards, for me it has to be a combination of things can we strike a balance. It is being able to emphasize, it is great to feel joy. I am love that quote from the reentry piece. It is about the difference between happiness and joyful. I think we try to introduce that to the space and moments we have created as well. 

>> Susan, as they question earlier that I would like you guys to respond to. It was a question about what is needed. I am try to get at that a little bit about from your perspective, you guys are stewards of the infrastructure that a lot of this is relying on. We are hearing that it needs to be over time, it cannot be a one off. What are some things that if you could waive the one -- wave the wand, what are a couple of things on the top of your mind that is needed? What is missing? 

>> we were talking about the value of those intermediaries and art. If I could have six mentorship sessions with somebody who was like that who could zoom in to my community and get meetings brokered that I could not myself over several years, maybe over 38 year. Maybe there was a three-year commitment where I could get that. There was a clear goal from where I was to where I am now. 

>> it is just building on that, it is a cultural intermediary, I am entering a world and I am not familiar with it. I am not familiar with the Latino community, it is that same somebody who has that same cultural competency. 

>> medicine, had the contribution about the lexicon buried is that strike you as something you would like to have access to? Other things about that. 

>> taking into that, I feel like it would be great to have multiple kinds of discourse that are occurring around particular projects. Those could be verbal, those are standard, but also articulation in writing, things that start to get out in multiple places. 

>> David, I would like to take a deeper. Those of us associated with the Academy, in the fine arts departments, design departments, they are learning how to take our place, we are not learning the depth of what is going to take and how to do these things. I would like to see a different kind of learning process. For the of people who are going to graduate and be presenters. The people who are specifically in this work, it becomes a part of their program and they get it in the understand. There would be less on-the-job training. 

>> I think one of the things I appreciate about our project was the time and effort getting a sharing of resources, getting to know what you are doing for education. It would be wonderful if we had that opportunity, I know it is not the case. 

>> take your comment, keep going. 

>> a toolkit may on methods of collaboration, several case studies of things that work and don't work, so you do not repeat the same mistakes that others have made. I know we have done that with our students, we are introducing a minor into our curriculum around engagement so that they can do that work rid so it is still undergraduate. You know, being in Dallas a lot of this is brand-new for people. Our large institutions and our philanthropic base, it is hard, there is a lot of education. I am one person. 

>> so, outer circle what are you hearing that you want to pick up on? What offers you want to make for this particular part of the conversation. 

>> hi, Connecticut office of the arts. I am actually going to come at this in a perspective of the work that I used to do. I used to be the executive director of the writers block, we ignited change on stage, primarily young people of color. Ages 10-17. What they would do is choose subjects and topics they thought were relevant to them read about social issues they wanted to put on stage, never did I hear them talk about the military, veterans, or PTSD and they do not know about that, there is a disconnect, it is interesting to me, I put some notes down, there is an interesting disconnect, the reason is because of certain communities you are taught that the military is bad. It is bad because you are already underrepresented in America, why would I go and fight a war, why would I do service when America is not doing justice for me. This is the mentality of some black communities, I think what would be interesting because I am still on the board of directors, I am still a member. Is to push them in the direction of looking at it from a sense of commonality. You look at Chicago, they call it Chiraq. They compare to Iraq with the daily deaths, you talk about reform in prisons, when you go out they like to go back in. That is similar to people in the military who want to go back, there is some kind of connection that I wanted to bring to this group to have us take about that. And we are talking about engagement and representation, how do we connect the young people to get them to understand the issues and there is also not much difference. 

>> you have the mic over there. 

>> this is so extraordinary, it tired me out that is hard to do. It is so extraordinary, I thought two quick things and I wanted to thank everybody. For this gathering, for what everyone has done, but for you and everyone who is working on this great thing. It helps to choose a meaningful area to start with, I hope this is some sign of what we as a community have the capacity to do with our time area we sure do needed. I realized all these parallels between this production and a show I did years ago between reaching out to the writers community and the Department of the environmental protection agency. We talked about a very structured disengaged, they did not, there was no way they were going to the dance theater workshop. I knew early on that the show was hard for them, so how do I do that? Without a lot of support, you cannot convince musical people to get time, whatever is going to happen on a lunch break, the same with the construction people. You are just not going to get through. That was in the haunted house -- hog house. I did tiny excerpts from the piece, a lot of those show the work to get out how to do it. In the lunch break, you have 300 people eating lunch, how do you figure that out? A bad effort is better than no effort. Or a failed effort. Then we designed a video with the help of the workers who had spent their entire life building tunnels, being secretaries, being assistance, they had never been there. We had this footage of the tunnel and building thing you look through and positioned the very strategically where they were out of sight of the boss office. We designed this wonderful thing where you started it and stopped it, it only ran if you put your hand on the cut out, it would stop instantly. If someone showed up down the hall, you could get away with it. The thing I wanted to offer everybody is they were still not going to come. That was fast. The first opening night of the show was a benefit for the 25 miners who had died. What you have any culture, when I worked with the police, the police has a partner structure. They have that buddy system. This was a benefit to raise money so that they can have recognition for these folks. Instead of charging $20 it was $100 a ticket. They came, than they could talk at work about it so they could tell their friends about it. Just figuring out what the culture and opportunity is missing, and how we can make that work for the better. 

>> I have a question for the group, if we can get a mic here, let's see if anyone wants to remember. We have gotten into the habit this afternoon of talking about it is not that different, it is like working with ethnic communities or like working with other communities. For some of the military professionals, is a different? When you hear that equivalency is that scary for how we are approaching it? We say that is not different but it is like what we did before. I just want to make sure. 

>> I had this conversation with a number of people, you are asking something that we have nodded heads on. As a mentioned earlier, I was in much of this room, the theater making room for 15 or 20 years. Then the last five years I have left that room, I turn around and here what we sound like, I was surprised. It feels a bit alien more than I expected, it is like I am back in my Iowa roots. It is a most like the sound of your own voice, you do not recognize it when you hear it on a recording. I think it really gets back to the same kind of thing we are talking about earlier in terms of allowing people with various backgrounds and believes, political ideologies to be welcomed into a particular environment that allows us to speak each other's language. It can sound a little, I don't know, a lack of something it is a little air it is very theoretical. yWe get it. We have been thinking about it. We have been slugging away at these intellectual concepts with concerns. It really sounds for an stew someone -- four and for someone who has not understood it. Here is how we talk, how can we get you to talk like us. It is a little more complicated than that. 

>> did you get a mic? 

>> I want, you should probably not talk about aesthetics after 5:00 p.m. especially what you just said. Picking up on what Margaret just said, that he'll must have been involved in the last five or six years with a group that are at the intersection of art and social justice. We finally are getting to the point where many of the artists in the group were very upset about this issue about aesthetics and how they thought they were bringing to the work were being taught as lack of rigor. This notion of somehow social justice art projects needed to be thought up as a distant -- different standard. Instead of being thought of high quality plus more. We kind of took on defining what is that plus. We have something called impress , we have worked with many of the kinds of qualities that people have talked about here, I think they would need to be, I think there is more from this conversation. We could also change the language to frame the conversation. Some of those qualities are disruption, risk taking, we labeled something as ferocity. It is something that can work instead of being a narrative typical way. We try to do something that was across art forms, we tried to do something not as thought of equality as standard. But qualities you may pick up on as an artist and articulate and want to be quote judged. I just finished the part that is designed for funders. It is designed to have people in the process, have funding, thinking about the qualities that are what would you look at? You would still have the quality to go along with the dance floor, then you look at these other things to, you value them depending on what the context is , you might encourage those more. Any of those qualities are about the process of more. As well as the product, in fact it is really more about the process, many of those qualities are process and product. This notion of aesthetics which we talked about, we wanted to claim that in the context, I think there is a kind of aesthetic that has come up many times in these conversations about what qualities should be associated with the work without trying to make it to -- we can talk tomorrow about some of those qualities might be. Some of them are similar to the social justice, and in some of them are a different flavor. 

>> I have a microphone I'm going to use here. I am going to take a little bit of a risk as somebody who has been listening a lot and to go to your question about is this like working in other communities. We do a lot of these convenience, I have stepped in a lot of these. The tenor of this feels different, I am trying to figure out what the differences, because it does not feel like a Latino theaters convening or black inner artist convening, it feels different to me. I'm going to take a risk and what that is and be wrong, just try to sort that out. One, depending on the work it feels like we are all circled around a common sense of purpose in this room. In terms of the idea that we have been talking about which are works of connection, these questions of reentry, Civilian versus military life area. Even the work we have looked at there is aesthetic differences, sure. Thematically it at least felt to me that it is following similar terrain, it feels to me like there is a common purpose about connection to a community that we have not felt fully connected to. What has not been on all of the differences inside of that. What happens in the conversations that we have had often is that a lot of tension arises because there is not a sense of common purpose about why we are gathered. I feel somehow the sense of common purpose is making us feel incredibly coherent as a conversation even amongst some a little differences, I just want to put that out there. I do not know if that is a good or bad thing, a starting point, or if it falls apart from here. I do not know. That is what I have noticed setting -- sitting in on these. 

>> you got one, then we will get one over there. 

>> a couple of things, to answer from my perspective at least, I was asked this question when we had an event with Austin. One of the audience members are up idea of are you afraid of universalizing the experience of the military? In any situation where you are trying to build a bridge between two places than their is that risk. That risk of universalizing the experience because to the audience and they are watching what is happening, they feel as if they have connected with or maybe absorbed some of that experience themselves. It is always going to be a risk, I do not make it is a reason to not do the work. I think it is good to pay attention to so you watch that. So, just this idea of if you go in and watch an experience that happens, in theater going back to Aristotle there is a catharsis. It means you relate to what is happening on stage, there is emotions inside of you. Sometime that can lead a person to feeling they have experienced that. Almost like the idea of mirror neurons, you seeing someone do something that pops up in your mind. It is your body that is controlling it, you are not doing it. I feel like in theater sometimes there is the potential for universalizing the experience. But when it is carefully done, with the proper witnesses, it guards against that. It allows people to bridge the communication gap, not a feeling the own part of that experience. This is off on a different note, related to what was going on for the presenters. Thank you very much, I never heard those viewpoints. I think it is very valuable to hear. I have a question about -- I guess is the couple of thoughts. Number one, are you working on orientations, which are already big gatherings of students. Is there a place where that can be more a part of it. Are you looking to bring in speakers, if you do a week of engagement and you have the show as a client -- claymation of that project. Are you working with the leaders of the National Guard, the reserves, they have kernels and generals in the area. Are they coming in to speak? If that is what is happening, that is amazing. I know we have -- I am losing his name -- Admiralty Craven is the Chancellor for the system. It is something that I have not seen yet with Texas performing arts, I think it could help is getting him in. He is a God amongst the military , I am a liberal, but I recognize what he represents. Having someone like that come in and do some kind of talk about leadership as a part of it. Wow, that could be powerful. Then the last thing, every presenting organization has large shows that comment. As those shows coming they have to be loaded in, part of that is bringing in a crew, I know crew is reserved for fine arts students and things like that, or union in some cases. If there are positions that exist I can tell you from experience with my reserve unit there was reserve students that did not have jobs. Their only source of money was from the reserve paycheck, and whatever they can scrounge up. Finding work like that, it provides a service to them that also allows them to provide a service back to you. They feel like they are going to be productive and doing something for themselves as well. That may be a nice way to present a bridge. 

>> thank you. There we will get one over here after you. 

>> so, I want to say, I find myself saying this inconvenience a lot. I do not assume we all have common ground, I do not sit here and assume we all have common purpose and do this for the same reason or have the same worldview. I think when we do make that assumption, we forget to have some really important conversations. I am just going to put that out there. I want to talk about specificity and commonality for a moment. For me, where the area of common experience is, we were talking about this earlier. I am specifically focused on work around trauma. That is not the entire military spectrum or the military experience. That is the work I am focused on , it is trauma. There is literally, literally, combat experience that happens with psychosis, body and brain. It is a response that is the same from that domestic violence, sexual violence, war industries, or even combat experience. That is the same physiologically . All of the experiences are very specific and defined. They actually will compound the trauma or not. Such as injury, poly trauma that happens in combat that may not be the same. I think as artists, we have to hold both of those things, it is a matter of understanding commonality and they get really specific. I think what makes good art is specificity. I wanted to offer that and put a second. In my world when I feel like I get people in a room together who would never be in a room together otherwise, actually the art has deep and meaningful and transformational experiences. I feel like I am able to present their work, not with a Q&A but a community conversation that includes a military general, a disabled veteran, a Muslim student leader and the professor who runs the Center for global solutions and a bunch of people who just came to see a show because they like opera, dance or whatever that form is. That is when I feel like community transformation is happening. With my work and being a presenter is have my own point of view and worldview while I do this and make space for all of the folks who do not have the same worldview as me. To be in a room together so that something will shift. 

>> Jeremy? 

>> Sometimes a village were going to say one thing and then there is another. I feel like it actually kind of relates in a way that I have not thought of before. This problem feels familiar as a public health repetition her. We have heard some homily that people who do not know what they do know, don't know. When you think about the power of the arts, it is very meaningful and useful to have people know something they did not know. You can see where this goes, how do you break through all that? I think what she said is maybe a part of the clue, we will have those environmental preconditioning, to plant the seed and have that curiosity that they may want to know more about. From a specific level about this topic, it gets into universality, trauma is a universal experience so is isolation and loneliness I think part of this is we do not know about the military situation, we know a lot about what is interesting to that community is challenged with that, you use that universality as the hook to universality. How you actually promote that, transfer that, that would have to be a part of the discourse about universality. People have to take their own way. 

>> Yes? 

>> I was feeling moved to say something about starting conversations and what has been useful for me and my practice is joining conversations. There is sort of listening to what people are talking about and what is needed. That is a very local, sort of immediate act. We can do this nationally, there is something particularly immediate about the local for me. Jumping up some of the things that have gone on in the inner circle, I have also warned another hat as a cultural presenter. I am always reminded myself that I wear a campus had but I am also community. I am in a community, I am a community person. I have to break down those barriers of campus and community, or artisan community all the time to remember that we are all of these things. Like many of you who do that kind of work, we get a load of emails from people with really great projects that might be great on my campus, we think about that role of the intermediary, is this something I want to do with resources and put the time into it. However my going to decide if this is a priority, I feel like part of my job in that comes from listening into the community that I am and if there is anything around this. Is this something we need? Is this something that needs to happen right now? Is there urgency, how will this contribute to what is already happening, how does this will who we are? It is not just does this look cool, but does it also have all these other things. That is the work fighting these connections. That will really help me get there. I guess just that piece of, I was thinking about that one of the skills of intermediary, how might we passed that along, I am curious about it. How could we train people to think about that active listening skill about how we do this work and how we can do that in the gestation process. 

>> So, we are a few minutes from ending, this is before we get into the break tomorrow that could be a bit more action oriented. I want to find out is there anybody who is sitting on a thing related to anything that has been set in all of this time that should come into the room before we break into our group since all things. Is there anything that has not entered? Yes a couple of things. 

>> I'm curious in terms of the audience, are you all tracking symptom ologies -- symptomology of PTSD, I am coming here as a representative of this, there was that many questions. I do not know, I am a stranger in a strange land for this phenomenon. I was anticipating a bit of a dialogue around how to conceptualize this process. I am curious if this is something you guys are already having knowledge of, I do not know what the process includes for you all? We did not get into that. That may be sort of a question you are sort of alluding to earlier. We did not really bring it up, I am sitting on that. 

>> As a thing on the mind so far, in a conversation that will go on. 

>> So as somebody running a theater company as an independent producer, I feel very torn in my mind about the necessity to have cultural archaeology going through an in-depth process of forming partnerships so that we can make relationships with these documentary subjects. That is truthful, respectful, friendly, it has boundaries, so that the work is not dull. I feel like at the same time we have lived in a world creatively and culturally where it is a numbers game that is rewarded. I feel like for me, you read all of this of the time that you have done 125 shows the season. That is very opposite to an in-depth inquiry that if it is taking two years to develop a show, or a year and a half at minimum, you are making sure these relationships mature. To have the artistic practice is well thought out do you survive? How do you play the numbers game as well of having a certain number of performances in New York. Serving a certain number of artists, I feeling those things are in direct contradiction to I feel stuck in the middle with being drawn about being able to those places at the same time. I absolutely do not have an answer. 

>> So we are sitting here talking about service to veterans in the military have a one of the things that struck me was I believe the Armed Services art project is the only service organization here. My question is, in the space of arts and military, in the space where does a veterans service organization fit in? What is our state -- sustainability here? I asked the same question about the conference three weeks ago, I can't remember, I asked this question and we did not have an answer for it. There are a lot of organizations that fizzle out, this is just 10 of a lingering question, what is the sustainability of this linkage to the community. This intermediary between the armed forces, there are 40 thousands of us. 

>> Is there a resource challenge with a 40,000. It is interesting, we have been focusing on a lot of the resource challenges. There are a lot of hands. I wanted Maureen to get a chance. Is there anything you're hearing that has been dropped that you want to go into this? She has been listening the whole time. 

>> I am or a fly on the wall, this may or may not be of interest to people, what I heard was a little bit of shining a way, having a hesitance to engage with the question that Carl tried to put on the table this morning with politics. People say this is political, and weed out work with the best. Some people say art is always political, we need to make change, we need to stop this. Getting back to Andrea's idea, what is that conversation if this work is all about the part of civic literacy. What is the end, I would try to start -- stop war. Early trying to encourage people to enlist, I do not know. I think it may be related to that. I keep wondering about the title of the event. 

>> One more. 

>> Or short I wanted to add that we have seen some truly substantial, powerful performances over the last couple of days. Right now we do not have projects that aspire to the 40 location to our. Or the big theaters, neither are they there appeared in the hospital, they are somewhere in the middle. Projects that are local that did not need to to her, they are also substantial nonetheless. I want to make sure we have that engaged. 

>> Is the first on the particular group has gathered in this way, we are not going to cover the whole thing. It is good to have a sense of what the neck it covered. Some of what you can do in your breakouts is to dig into some of these things are in where you are feeling there was not enough conversation. That will be tomorrow. I am going to hand this back to Jamie, she can tell us the next plan. 

>> Thank you very much. I want to do a quick logistical rundown and that have James tell you about these groups tomorrow and give you a heads up I think you can be thinking about tonight. The first announcement is a. If you want to hang out later on tonight, if you are not tired and want to have a beer, wine, the hotel does have a bar. I want to designate that. We can have an informal gathering place, it is the Emerald lounge. It is vaguely themed after the Wizard of Oz unfortunately. You can meet there. They do not allow tennis shoes? I need to think about that. I do not have the brain capacity to respond to that could change. Maybe there should be a different meeting spots. The second thing I will say it is daylight savings time tonight, we spring forward one hour. I want to make sure that everybody knows that