For over twenty years, teams from the University of Sydney have been excavating Nea Paphos, a splendid ancient theatre on the southwestern coast of Cyprus. Built in the year after Alexander the Great’s conquest, the theatre entertained audiences for over six centuries. At its height, it could hold over 8,000 spectators.

Dr. Craig Barker is a co-director of the excavation and Manager of Education and Public Programs at Sydney University Museums. He joined us to talk about the history and layout of Nea Paphos, its hidden surprises, and the mysteries that he and his colleagues are still investigating.

An overhead view of the theatre.
The University of Sydney's team at work on the site of the Nea Paphos theatre.
The mysterious "Charonian" tunnel that runs from under the stage-building to the orchestra. 

Links:

  • Explore the Paphos Theatre Archaeological Project through their website, which features extensive information about the site and plenty of photos.
  • Learn more about the archaeology of the town of Nea Paphos from the Cypriot government’s Department of Antiquities.

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Transcription: 

Michael Lueger: Theatre History podcast is support by HowlRound, a knowledge commons by and for the theatre community. It's available on iTunes and howlround.com. 

Hi and welcome to the Theatre History podcast. I'm Mike Lueger. Today we're talking to Dr. Craig Barker who's Manager of Education and Public Programs at Sydney University Museums. Dr. Barker is one of the directors of the excavations at Nea Paphos, an ancient theatre on the southwest coast of the Mediterranean island of Cyprus. Since 1995, teams from the University of Sydney have been excavating Nea Paphos and their discoveries have helped us better understand an often overlooked period of theatre history. 

Craig, thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. Craig Barker: My pleasure, Mike.

Michael: Your project describes Nea Paphos as a Hellenistic Roman theatre. What does that mean in terms of when it was built, when it was in use?

Craig: That is really an archeological, chronological indicator. The Hellenistic Period is the era following the conquest of Alexander the Great. More or less the end of the fourth century BC right through until affectively the death of Cleopatra and Mark Antony and then the rise of the Roman Period afterwards. Cyprus is one of the core islands of the East Mediterranean. It was at the heart of a lot of those geo-political changes that were occurring right throughout those centuries. What's interesting about the site that we're excavating is that it was a theatre that was used as a venue for performance and eventually for spectacle for over six and a half centuries. It's a really, really fascinating sense of how a Hellenistic Greek and then a Roman audience interacted with performance and interacted with a varied concept of theatre.

Michael: Speaking of that, one of the things I find particularly interesting about what you've written here is theatre is a little bit different from the sort of early, the Hellenic Period, ancient Athens. What is the role that theatre plays in this society? One of the most interesting things, I thought, was that in your writings about the site, you mentioned that this is one of the first things that they built when they founded the city.

Craig: It's a really fascinating period. I think, again, it's a projection the role that theatre and performance more generally was playing within a sense of cultural identity and cultural self-awareness. Within Cyprus, you've already got a sense of Hellenic belonging, which does pre-date the foundation of our town of Nea Paphos and around about 300 BC and the very construction of the theatre that we've been excavating. There is a theatrical tradition on the island that we may have a chance to talk about later on that pre-dates it. One of the profound changes that occurs right across the East Mediterranean in the wake of Alexander the Great's conquest is this growing awareness of an identity of a Hellenic identity. Theatre and performance is one of the key ways that this recently conquered areas, places like Egypt, places like coast, modern day Israel, modern day Jordan, modern day Syria, could actually demonstrate their cultural awareness of these profound changes that have occurred. Their way of showing that they belong. Cyprus is one of the major trading ports and strategically incredibly important. What makes Paphos such an important city was its harbor, was this ability to link in with this.

Now what you need to bear in mind that when we tend to think of classical Greek performance, we think of the great tragedians, Socrates, Euphrates, and Aeschylus and Aristophanes, the great comedian. They were writing in Athens in the fifth century BC. Over 150 years earlier in many cases. To put that in a modern perspective, this is the equivalent of a modern theatre putting on plays from the mid nineteenth century. They've already become canon by the time that they would have been performed in the very early phases of our theatre's history. Indeed, from a separate perspective, from a separate audience perspective, if they were seeing productions of these plays, these were already ingrained culturally within an awareness. These were stories that were well known. Again, in the same way that someone like Shakespeare for example, for a modern audience, underpins so much of the way that we as a modern society think about theatre and think about performance as well. There was a very, very profound change.

We tend to talk about a lot those changes in the wake of Alexander the Great as a koine. This was a term developed in terms of Greek language becoming the common means of communication. Whatever your native tongue was, you would use Greek to communicate a business transaction or for trade or for documents and so on. Much the way that English is the universal language of the globe today. The argument that can be made is that theatre becomes a cultural koine. A way of people being able to engage culturally, be respective of their ethnic background or culturally identity. That they became Greek through using theatre . This is where the establishment of the theatre as one of the very first buildings in a newly established town in Cyprus and around about 300 BC just indicates all sorts of profound changes that are occurring.

Michael: You mentioned that the theatre in Nea Paphos is in use for six and a half centuries. Obviously, you're going to go through a lot of renovations, other kinds of changes over that time period. Nevertheless, in the course of the excavations, you gained a pretty clear sense of what the theatre 's layout was. Can you describe it to us?

Craig: Yes. In terms of describing the theatre, what we have uncovered in the twenty years of the University of Sydney's mission has been working in Cyprus and we do our work under the auspice of the Department of Antiquities of Cyprus, the local government authority. It's a very, very carefully excavated site, following all the rules of archeological excavation. Attempting to understand its chronological changes through time, whether the architecture is developed. It's a fascinating things because it calls for a building that's being used for the same purpose for such a long period of time that when you do have architectural changes, what you're getting is a re-building using contemporary architectural practices. Again, they're probably also reflecting contemporary performance practices as well. They way that the theatre looked when it was first constructed about 300 BC as opposed to the way that it looked and was being used in its final phases in around about 340, 350 AD or within the Common Era, is a profoundly different building. Yet, it's built one on top of the other. Over the course of the excavations, we've been able to identify at least five key architectural phases that reflect that.

It is a typical Greek theatre as you would find elsewhere in the Mediterranean world. Of course today, we would probably use the word amphitheater to describe it as an outdoor venue. For the ancient Greek and Roman architects, there was a very, very strict demarcation in terms of the way that the building was used for performance and for entertainment. A theatre, from the Greek word theatron, meaning to see, was an outdoor venue, semicircular in shape with a flat area in which the chorus could dance and perform and a slightly raised stage for the actors to stand upon and to actually perform. A smaller, more intimate version of that was an odeum for the Greeks, or an auditorium the Romans. Again, the focus was on the ability to hear. This is where you would have performances of music or more intimate venue performances as well. Poetry reading, for example. Then, of course, there is the amphitheater in the ancient sense, which is a completely circular building. Something like the Colosseum in Rome, the most famous example. It's used purely for gladiatorial fights and for spectacles. Again, coming from Australia, that Russell Crowe connection, I guess, is something that most people think of.

Each of those buildings have a very, very strict architectural purpose. Our theatre , very, very typical of the Greek style theatre has four key elements. The orchistra, where we get the word orchestra from in English, which is the rounded or semi circular space on which the chorus would dance. The stage or the actual stage building slightly raised, again, and this building would change considerably at the time. But it's on this space that one actor is initially taken out of the chorus, according to historical tradition. Thespis, the very first actor. Whether that story is true or not, the idea is that gradual evolution in the way that by withdrawing an actor out of the chorus and separating that performer, you have the ability to engage in conversation and then eventually by pulling out a second or a third actor, a whole sense of dialogue and recall by the chorus as well.

There's no point in putting on a performance without an audience to actually see it, so the semicircular area, what we call a cavea, in our particular theatre, but this is a Roman phrase, is the seating back then of how much the audience would sit and view the performance. It's raised. Again, one of the things that this sort of bell shaped, semicircular seating area does is naturally amplify the sound, which enabled the performers to actually project their voices over a much greater distance. A cavea, orchestra, stage building, and then the two ceremonial entrance ways on either side, what are called the paradoi. Our theatre has all four of those elements, which makes it a classic Greek theatre.

Interestingly, the period in which it's being built, as I say, over a century after The Theatre of Dionysus of Athens, which is where those great classical, great plays are being first performed. There's a slow evolution in terms of the Greek shape. As Greek theatre moves from its center within mainland Greece and is eventually transported right across the Mediterranean world, the buildings themselves being to evolve because the topography, the land in which the architects are building the theatre s will evolve as well. In many ways, it outsets almost halfway between the classical Greek model and the later Roman theatre as well.

Michael: Like you said, most of this is reasonably familiar to anyone who knows anything about sort of ancient Greek theatres. But, there's one particular feature that you mentioned in some of your scholarly work on this that I found really interesting. Do I have this correct? There's a tunnel under the theatre?

Craig: Yes, that's right. A sub orchestral tunnel. These are incredibly rare. There's only, to the best of my knowledge, only thirteen theatres in the entire Mediterranean in which this feature has been revealed. There is potentially more where the orchestra has not been excavated through. There could be a few more. Nonetheless, given that there are at least 200 known theatres right across the Greek and Roman world, literally stretching from Britain right across to modern day Syria and Jordan, it's an incredibly minute number. It also was interesting about the one that we're excavating is that it's perpendicular, so there is a set of stairs leading down on a perpendicular angle, which then curves at a right angle and leads underneath the orchestra approximately two thirds of the way into the orchestra area.

Now, to the best of our knowledge, our one was constructed during the second phase of our theatre's history. This is around about 140 BC. This is a period in which Cyprus is heavily under the influence and control of Ptolemies based in Alexandria and Egypt. Cleopatra the Seventh, of course, is the most famous of Ptolemies. There is a dynasty that rules Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean, their empire, or their kingdom for quite a number of centuries. Ours is built during this very, very Alexandrian, very, very baroque architecturally phase of the theatre 's history. It seems to have been used for at least a century, maybe a century and a half, up until a major earthquake in probably 17 BC. At that stage under Augustus, the very first Roman emperor, it seems to have been filled for some reason.

Historically, there are mentions of these types of tunnels, in particular by a chap writing in the second century AD called Pollux. Pollux complied an encyclopedia and he describes these types of tunnels as a Charonian tunnel. Very much in terms of reference to classical mythology. The argument that Pollux put forward was that this type of feature architecturally enabled the actors that were playing a character who died during the performance of a mythological scene, remember one of the key elements of classical Greek theatre is that no one dies on stage. Everyone dies off stage. When the character dies in Hades, for whatever reason, that character later on in the play, he rescinds back to earth, the argument is that they would run underneath these tunnels invisible to the audience, open a trap door and re-appear in the orchestra. Ancient special effects, if you like.

What's fascinating, if you look at the thirteen known examples of these theatres is just how difficult it actually would have been for an actor in a heavy mask, in heavy costumes to have actually navigated their way in the dark backwards and forwards. We're actually questioning the reality of whether Pollux's description is right or not. Pollux is writing hundreds of years after these types of tunnels stopped being used. So, he never would have seen one being used as well. It's an interesting conundrum historically and archeologically.

Michael: At its height, this theatre could fit almost 8,500 people. On your project's website, you mention that going to a performance here might have been like going to a major football match for us today. At the same time, you also said that the amount of evidence that survives about performances at this theatre , particularly from the early centuries when it was in use, is, and I'm quoting you directly here, "Frustratingly limited." How much or how little do we really know about what it was like at these performances? What was being staged, who attended, what was the experience like?

Craig: I guess there's a number of different answers to that particular question. We're very fortunate and we do know a lot about the architectural development in these different five phases. Yet, so much of the history of this particular building, and the history of Cyprus generally, is about buildings being destroyed by earthquake. As I mentioned before, there was that tradition at the theatre of Paphos, but elsewhere in the Mediterranean as well, that if the theatre building itself was destroyed or damaged, you're not re-building it as a heritage architectural process, but you are re-building it according to contemporary practices. We have clear evidence of an Alexandrian phase, as I mentioned before. Right about 140 BC. We seem to have evidence of an Augustan phase. Again, probably associated with major earthquake. That period you spoke about of a greatest extent of the building is during the Antonine emperors. Marcus Aurelius and Pius in the middle of the second century AD. At that point in time, the building is literally ninety meters from one side to the other. As you mentioned, to our estimates would have had a seating capacity for over eight and a half thousand people.

The later phases of the theatre obliterated much of the architecture of the earlier phases. That's just the nature of it. Not to mention the very fact that when the theatre itself was destroyed, so much of the stonework was quarried away and rubbed away. Up to now, our best evidence is actually comparing what we have, other theatrical sites around the Mediterranean world and comparing the architectural developments and some of these other theatres.

The other thing, of course, is that it's very, very difficult to determine the actual nature of performance at that stage. We know it changes from that classical Greek ideal through to a Hellenistic style of performance, which was probably very heavily based upon the concept of new comedy. The type of plays that's typified by the surviving phase of Menander, a real situational humor. The invention of the modern American television sitcom. That sense of stock characters. The love sick son and the rather simple dad and the street smart wife and so on as well. And then changes again during the Roman performances of Roman drama, Roman comedy, Roman satire as well. We don't know exactly what plays were performed at Paphos. We don't know of the styles of acting that the actors who were performing that space were undergoing. By modern eyes, was it a rather stilted performance or was it actually a relatively naturalistic? We just don't know because obviously we have no records surviving. No literary sources describing, "I went and saw a play at the theatre at Paphos and I saw this."

I guess that's where it's slightly frustrating because we're excavating a building which was so filled with people and with people artistically using the space and with people in the audience appreciating and engaging with that creativity on a really, really interesting perspective. Religiously, culturally, and pure entertainment as well. We don't know that type of emotional response. That is a little bit sad to be missing that part of the story. Nevertheless, we have other tantalizing glimpses from other aspects of ancient Cyprus and in the Hellenistic and Roman theatrical material culture anyway.

So, there's a long tradition on Cyprus, even before our theatre was constructed, of the manufacturer of small terra cottas of comedy play figures. Again, the audience kind of knew what style of adventure or misadventure was going to take place simply by seeing the costume by the actors wearing these types of characters. The mask and the costume of the slave. The mask and the costume of the house and so on.

The other thing, of course, is seeing depictions of theatrical masks represented elsewhere in the town. We're very, very fortunate in Paphos. Paphos is a listed site because the archeology is so superb. There are a series of Roman period houses, places like The House of Dionysos and Villa of Theseus. They've been excavated by our separate colleagues and by missions from Poland and from other archeological teams that have revealed amazing mosaics and incredible fresco's. One of the common features that you'll see represented in these domestic settings are of theatrical masks. Again, it shows that theatre was a very, very significant part of the daily life of citizens of this town in Cyprus but belonging to this broader Greek world and then later on as being part of the Roman Empire.

Again, it is frustrating in many way. But, it's also a challenge and a very, very exciting research question for us, seeing the way that theatre wasn't just about the building itself. It was part of life more generally.

Michael: What ultimately happens to Nea Paphos? How did the theatre fall into disuse after six and a half continuous centuries of use?

Craig: It's kind of interesting. There's a whole series of combinations of events that take place in the fourth century AD. One of the key things that's probably worthwhile mentioning in terms of these architectural changes that we haven't spoken about yet. The very final phase of the theatre 's history really suggests that it's not being used as a theatre anymore in the sense that other venues were putting on plays. There is a burial wall erected between the orchestra and the lower seats of the audience. That wall is stone. There is foundation that suggest that it may have been some sort of netting as well. The orchestra was coated with a water proofing mortar and we have pretty good evidence now of things such as terra cotta and so on that seem to indicate that that space could have been flooded. This is quite typical trend that in the third and fourth centuries AD right across the Roman Empire, but particularly in the East where venues that were traditionally being used for more formalized productions of plays are now being used for displays of wild animals, flooding for reenactment of naval battles. The Colosseum, of course, was the most famous example of this. Our particular orchestra in Paphos was probably too small to reenact the Battle of Actium, or something like that.

Certainly, displaying crocodiles in Nile or having female performers dressed up as water nymphs certainly could have been possible. It's a real sense of spectacle, rather than theatre. More of a Hollywood-ization of Roman Theatre in many ways. It's really, really quite fascinating to see this same trend occurring in Cyprus as it is elsewhere across the Roman, East and Mediterranean.

I should in passing just say that as an indication of just how important Paphos was, we talked before about the three different types of venues. By the second century AD, Paphos has a theatre, an odeon and an amphitheater as well. This is incredibly rare. Not even Athens can lay claim to having all three types of entertainment venues. It was a significant town.

By the fourth century AD, there's also fundamental changes. One is that there appear to have been some type of economic decline right across the Roman Empire. Within Cyprus itself, Paphos goes from being the Roman provincial capital of the island and instead that title is picked up by Salamis, which is a city on the east coast of the island instead. It loses a lot of its status, a lot of its economic power.

The other key thing is that there is a moral change. By this point in time, Christianity has been adopted as the official religion of the Roman Empire. For the early Christian founders, a concept of fake performance or fake emotions being displayed within a theatrical setting was the very antithesis of the message they were trying to create or trying to get across through Christian worship as well. There was a very strong moral outrage against theatre and gradually theatrical performances right across the century begins to decline.

In the case of Paphos, and indeed right across the south coast of Cyprus, there are a series of devastating earthquakes that hit the island time and time again, certainly for at least a decade, but probably longer. We're a little unclear as to which particular one of these seismic activities wiped out our theatre completely, but probably a messy earthquake of 365 AD. This earthquake devastated the nearby town of Kourion. Similarly devastated Paphos. Surviving accounts of travelers going merely a decade later talk about how this great city of antiquity, this city that had such strong cultural connections with the worship of Aphrodite in the Pagan Era, the Goddess of Love and Beauty, completely in ruins. So, it appears to be that it was one of these earthquakes, or indeed perhaps a series of the earthquakes that really represent the death toll of the theatre .

In the past, they would have re-built it, but because of the moral change, and because of the economic decline, there's no longer an impetus, no longer an interest in actually doing this as well. The building itself becomes ruins and gradually throughout the later forth and into the fifth century and maybe even the sixth centuries AD, it becomes a major quarry site where local property developers and local developers gradually strip away and recycle much of the building material. Particularly during the Roman period when there was a lot of importation of marble elements and marble architectural elements. The performers during the Roman theatre as opposed to the Hellenistic phase where it's a relatively simple stage, building a simple stage, the Roman theatre becomes much more encased. I guess from a modern theatre going audience expectation, probably something more similar to what we're used to. We go and see a performance in a dark room and the environment is controlled by the space, by the architecture of the building. Where a true ancient Greek theatre in many ways the landscape behind the theatre was part of the performance.

For our listeners who have traveled through Greece and the Mediterranean, think of some of the spectacular surviving ancient Greek theatres in places like Delos or Delphi, where the theatre have these stunning views and vistas across the sea or looking down into a valley. What greater backdrop than performing stories of the gods and goddesses and heroes than to actually use nature itself. The Roman theatre is a complete antithesis. You've got two story buildings very heavily colonnaded, much, much marble for siding and indeed imperial sculpture probably displayed right across the stage building itself as well. It's a much more false environment in terms of the back drop. It's incredibly rich building material to be re-used and recycled. In the case of our theatre in Paphos, what's interesting is that so much of that marble and so much of that stone work is seemingly recycled and re-used in a nearby early Christian basilica built merely decades later.

Michael: Can you tell us a little bit about your work at the site? What do you and your colleagues do there? Are there any unique challenges to excavating a theatre?

Craig: Our team for the University of Sydney run the Paphos archeological project have been working at the site now since 1995. We tend to work there for approximately five or six weeks each year. The project was inaugurated by Professor Richard Green, one of my teachers and mentors. I now direct the project myself. There are many, many senior team members who are architects, who are specialist archeologists in the material that we're finding. Ceramics, glass, terra cottas and sculpture and other types of finds that are typical of a Greek or Roman site. As I said before, we work very closely with our separate colleagues from the Department of Antiquities who oversee the project more generally. It's an interesting project because like many of these types of digs in the Mediterranean, they are long term projects. We've been working there for twenty years. We could very easily work there for another twenty years, depending on funding and also some other arrangements.

In terms of the research questions, they are often dictated by the types of finds that we are uncovering and classically with archeology, that often by answering one set of questions you open up a can of worms. You open up a whole set of new questions. Five or six new research questions each season. In our case, it's not just the theatre but during the Middle Ages, during the period of The Crusades, there were all sorts of laid construction over the top of the theatre where they probably seemingly completely unaware that there was this important Greek and Roman building beneath them.

When we first started digging there in 1995, it was completely covered with soil. If you look at the photos of the site now, it's remarkable just how much soil we have moved. There still is very much work to be done. One of the key things that interesting to me personally is the whole urban context of what Paphos was like in the Hellenistic and Roman periods. You have a theatre that has a capacity of thousands of people, but logistically during an ancient performance or during a dramatic festival, how do you move those people in and out? What is the infrastructure? Where do they eat? Where do they go to the toilet? How does the theatre relate to other buildings that were built around it? So, in more recent years, we've been excavating a road in a Roman nympheum, a Roman fountain house, very, very close to the site. In theory, we should have a temple located very close to the site as well. Perhaps dedicated to Dionysius, which is very, very common. Dionysius, of course, being the ancient Greek god or Bacchus as the Romans would have known him. The God of Theatre as well. Potentially, we should be finding some religious paraphernalia as well.

You asked me before about some of the frustrating limits in terms of what we know and what we don't know. If you were to ask me the one find that we would love to directly excavate, that would be the victory list, because typically in Greek and Roman theatre s, plays that have been put on as part of a dramatic festival and there is a competitive element of it as well. That type of victory list might give us an indication of the types of plays that were being performed. Frustratingly, we found fragments of marble that probably would have belonged to this type of document. Only small sections of it as well. Perhaps one day in the future we'll have a better knowledge.

Michael: Your mentioning that reminds me of something we spoke about before the interview. You also mention that there are some hints at least, and maybe you'd like to discover more evidence about this, of a theatre guild. Almost like a, what is that, a union of actors?

Craig: I think, Mike, one of the really interesting objects that has been found in Cyprus, and to date it's the oldest theatrical document ever found on the island, is a statue base found in 1927. We don't know precisely where it was found. There were no records kept. It's likely to be from our theatre. It's a statue base that would have dated to 142 BC. On top of it would have been a limestone or marble statue of an official of the Ptolemaic Empire. Remember, this is the key point in time where they town and the theatre has very clear associations with Alexandria and Egypt and with the Ptolemaist that we talked about before. From our perspective, what's interesting is that engraved on the base of that statue is a document referring to the Dionysiac guild of artists of Paphos. It is like a union of performers or a community of performers.

What's fascinating about this particular document is it list members of the Papheon board. It's effectively a list of names of actors of local playwrights. It indicates a couple of key things. One is that there is a very, very healthy community in Paphos. By this point in time, our theatre is 150 years old. So, that makes sense. The fact that there are local Papheon playwrights also very much suggests that it's not just imported plays from elsewhere in the Greek and Roman world that are being put on, but they are writing their own stories as well and telling their own tales. I think that's a rather interesting thing. Even if the plays themselves don't survive, we get some sense of it.

We're also bearing in mind in the Hellenistic and Roman world, there was also a status of actors very similar to the Hollywood status today, where indeed mega stars of Broadway and west end. These household names who would literally travel from theatre to theatre across the Mediterranean world from dramatic festival to dramatic festival and often charging incredibly large sums of money. It's very much like the modern Hollywood system of stars as well. It's interesting that you would have had a local performing troop and then probably periodically visiting actors and theatre makers casting through as well.

Michael: Lastly, I'm just curious on a more personal level, who is working with you on the site? What is the sort of typical, I don't know what to call it exactly, excavation session, like?

Craig: It's a lot of hard, physical work. But, also incredibly rewarding in many ways. It will vary a little bit from season to season. Depending upon our objectives and depending upon budgets and other things. We can take anything between twenty to sixty archeologists, archeological specialists, surveyors, illustrators, photographers, students and even members of the public through our volunteer program have worked with us over the years. It's a collaboration in which we are doing physical excavation. Digging trenches to actually reveal part of the architecture. Other team members who are researching the finds as they come out of the ground and trying to make sense of them as well. It's in the Mediterranean and we're working there in summer or in hot seasons, so we're working very early in the morning trying to beat the sun and then doing a lot of the interpretive and research work in the afternoons. Of course, by photographing and recording all of our finds. We often do the bulk of our research work back in the museums and libraries and laboratories back at the University of Sydney as well. It's kind of interesting that we'll dig for five weeks of the year, but it's on my mind for the other forty odd weeks of the year as well, too. I'm always thinking of ancient theatre.

Michael: We'll post some images of the Nea Paphos site in our show notes as well as a link to the official website for the excavation. There you can explore many more images from Nea Paphos as well as detailed information about the project. Craig, thank you so much.

Craig: Thank you, Mike. It's been a pleasure.

Michael: If you'd like to continue today's conversation, please visit howlround.com and follow HowlRound and @theatrehistory on Twitter. A big thank you to the staff at HowlRound who make this show possible. Our theme music is The Black Crook Gallop, which comes to us courtesy of the New York Public Library Libretto Project and Adam Roberts. Thanks as well to Tip Crest who designed our logo. And finally, thank you for listening.