Black Queer “Mess” and A Strange Loop

Leticia Ridley: Welcome to Daughters of Lorraine, a podcast from your friendly neighborhood Black feminists. Exploring the legacies, present, and futures of Black theatre. We are your hosts, Leticia Ridley.

Jordan Ealey: And Jordan Ealey. This is a podcast produced for HowlRound Theatre Commons, a free and open platform for theatremakers worldwide. And on it we discuss Black theatre history, conduct interviews with local, national, and international Black theatre artists, scholars, and practitioners, and discuss plays by Black playwrights that have our minds buzzing.

Leticia: In 2019, A Strange Loop by Michael R. Jackson had its off-Broadway premiere at Playwrights Horizons in New York City. The musical follows Usher, an aspiring musical theatre writer whose work in progress explores what it means to “travel the world in a fat, Black queer body.” Alongside this journey are the Thoughts, Usher’s inner dialogue that represent various aspects of his emotional world, such as his daily self-loathing and his sexuality. A Strange Loop debuted to critical and commercial success with its initial run being extended and playing to consistently sold-out houses.

Jordan: Though A Strange Loop fell victim to the postponements that occurred due to the COVID-19 pandemic, it eventually made its regional debut at Washington D.C.’s Woolly Mammoth Theatre Company in December 2021, and subsequently transferred to Broadway in April 2022, where it ran for three hundred and fourteen performances until closing in January 2023. The Broadway production garnered several Tony nominations, including a featured actress nomination for L Morgan Lee, who was the first openly trans actor to receive a Tony nomination. A Strange Loop won Best Musical, Jackson won Best Book of a Musical, and the musical also won the 2020 Pulitzer Prize for Drama, only one of ten musicals to do so.

In today’s episode, we discuss the Canadian premiere of A Strange Loop, which was a co-production among the Musical Stage Company, Soulpepper Theatre, Crow's Theatre, and TO Live, and we reappraise the musical's impact in today's socio-political climate.

Jordan: Hello. Welcome back. Welcome back to Daughters of Lorraine. It is a really very gloomy day here in Rochester, New York. How’s the weather? I'm sure it's a similar thing there in Toronto.

Leticia: Yeah, we’re quite close. So our weather's probably pretty similar. I actually haven’t been outside today because I had a long night at the theatre for blackout night for a production that we will be talking about on the podcast very soon. So I haven’t been outside, but hopefully it’s not too cold that I can’t go for a walk later.

Jordan: Absolutely. Same here. Same here. Got to get those steps in. So today’s episode is a really exciting one. It’s a show that we have both have been circling around for a few years, and that I’ve actually seen several times, but I think this might’ve been your first time seeing at least, a live production of the show?

Leticia: Yes. This was my first time seeing this particular show, and I guess we don’t need to spoiler alert—

Jordan: Right.

Leticia: Well, there will be spoilers. So if you haven’t seen the show and you haven’t listened to the album, maybe you shouldn’t actually listen to this episode.

Jordan: Also, where have you been?

Leticia: Yeah. Because honestly, we’re kind of late, right?

Jordan: Yeah, we’re really late talking about this publicly.

Leticia: Yeah, we’re late talking about A Strange Loop. We had the pleasure of seeing a production of A Strange Loop.

Jordan: The Canadian premiere of it. Yes.

Leticia: Yes, the Canadian premiere. It was a co-production with the Musical Stage Company, Soulpepper Theatre, Crow's Theatre, and TO Live. So four companies got together to bring the Canadian premiere of A Strange Loop to Toronto, and Jordan and I had the pleasure of experiencing this particular production, and we have many, many thoughts that we're going to share with you all. But yes, this was my first time seeing any live production. I did teach it this winter term, winter, that's what we call it in Canada, the winter term where I was teaching a Race in the Broadway Musical course, and one of the musicals that we examined was A Strange Loop. And there are people in the world who share with us their experience. So I did kind of see some clips from those, from that. But I will say my initial thoughts going into the production is: I was, and using the background knowledge of me teaching it, and what I knew about it, is that I honestly didn't know how I would feel about a live production.

I really went into the show feeling quite unsettled about the show and not knowing where I sort of stood on it. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, it was just me trying to make sense of the sort of discomfort and the ways that I was being pushed by the musical. So I appreciate it on that level. So it was definitely a treat. And I remember Jordan, when A Strange Loop first came out and when we were still in Maryland, and you would be like, “Oh man, there's this new musical called A Strange Loop.” And you would play that song about Tyler Perry over and over in the car as we drove to campus.

Jordan: It's such a funny song.

Leticia: And I think I scoffed at you many times. I was like, “Oh my God, I'm so tired of hearing this song.” And I was like, “It's not that funny to me.” And then I seen it in production and I was like, “This is hilarious.”

Jordan: Thank you.

Leticia: My experience... Yes, yes. I give it up to you. You were right. It was funny. My experience of A Strange Loop is not quite vast in my actual engagement with it, but it's kind of been circulating for me for quite a bit. How about yourself?

Jordan: I mean, just like you said, right? Also, the context, as many, many people are probably so tired of hearing me talk about, being a Black musical theatre scholar, but this is my field of study, and so there was absolutely no world in which, I was ever going to escape this show. But I was really excited about it when it first came out. As we say in the episode preview, started at Playwrights Horizons, living in Maryland at the time, and being so close to New York, I wanted to get there so bad, but just, you know, I was a broke graduate student then. Now I can take a little day trip here and there. Thank you to not being in grad school anymore, but not all the time. I'm not, what am I? Kennedy? But I wasn't able to get to New York to see it, also, even if I was, it was basically a sold out run from my understanding, too, of that.

But I do remember, this is actually the third time that I've seen A Strange Loop, production of it. I saw it when it came to Woolly Mammoth, its pre-Broadway run at Woolly Mammoth. That was the first time I saw it. Then I saw it again. I didn't actually see it on Broadway, I saw it again in London. That was my second time seeing it, and my listeners can't see, but that was where I also procured my favorite theatre t-shirt, which says, “Big Black, Queer-ass, American Broadway Show” on it. And I'm like, I got to do it for the culture. And then now, so it's interesting. I was like, “Oh, wow, this is my third time seeing it and my second time in another country seeing this particular show.” And I actually think that that has shaped my experience with the musical.

As Leticia said, I was obsessed with the cast recording, and I specifically think that the songs “Tyler Perry Writes Real Life” and “Writing a Gospel Play” are two of the funniest songs that I've ever heard in my life. But when I saw it in DC at Woolly Mammoth Theatre Company, it was really difficult. It was a hard show to watch, and I was not prepared for it to be such a difficult show for me to digest as a Black audience member. And we can talk more about that, but that really shaped my reception of the musical. It's gotten better since then, and I think I've been able to think about it in different contexts because I've been forced to, seeing it in London and then Toronto after that. But yeah, I loved the cast recording for so long, and then when I saw it, I was like, not let down, but I was like, maybe at that time I wasn't quite prepared to see a show that dealt with Black queer vulnerability in such a raw and an unfiltered way.

Leticia: Yeah, no, no, definitely so. And I echo a lot of your initial feelings about it. And I'm actually glad that I had some frame before I actually seen it live, because I think I probably would've had a similar reaction if I would've seen the Woolly production and just went in cold turkey. And the rawness, I think, also has to do with the audience in which you experienced the musical in. And we can talk a bit about that later, but let's just sort of highlight some of the details about the musical. So A Strange Loop book, music and lyrics was written by Michael R. Jackson, who has now had, I think two other musicals.

Jordan: White Girl-

Leticia: White Girl in-

Jordan: Yeah, White Girl in Danger and Teeth.

Leticia: And Teeth. So someone who's still very much actively in the musical theatre scene who I appreciate for pushing form in interesting, compelling ways, specifically in musical theatre where sort of tradition and formula seems to take precedent oftentimes. I think A Strange Loop very much pushes what we know about musical theatre, and what we expect when we go to see a musical in so many ways that I think is interesting. As Daphne Brooks might say, “pace stew." And his musical. But the musical itself, Michael R. Jackson says that it's not autobiographical, it is self-referential.

Jordan: Love that.

Leticia: So that is a framing for us to enter into the musical so that we cannot say that Michael R. Jackson, this story that we're experiencing is Michael R. Jackson's, even if they have overlapping commonalities, but it is sort of a reference to his life. So I love that framing, and I think it's important to sort of place that into conversation. The book says, “the setting is a loop within a loop within a perception of one man's reality.”

Jordan: Love that.

Leticia: Which I think actually becomes quite important for some of understanding how the Thoughts show up and Usher's representation.

Jordan: Usher, Usher, Usher, Usher, Usher.

Leticia: It's some of the representation of his family. So I think those are sort of certain things to highlight. And just to give a quick synopsis for folks who may have not seen the music or not heard of it and are listening to this episode, the musical centers around Usher.

Jordan: Or it's been a long time and you need a refresher

Leticia: Or yes, right. The musical centers around Usher, a Black musical playwright in his mid-twenties who works as a Broadway usher at The Lion King while he's writing a musical about an aspiring Black musical playwright who works as a Broadway usher.

Jordan: And that—

Leticia: a.k.a…

Jordan: ... my friends is the strange loop.

Leticia: That is the loop, we're getting the loop theme. Highly awarded. This musical is highly awarded. It was awarded the 2020 Pulitzer Prize, it won the seventy-fifth Tony Award for Best Musical and Best Book of a Musical. I read an interview with Michael R. Jackson about A Strange Loop, and he quoted Robert O'Hara as a way to understand some of the complexities of the musical. He says, and this is quoting from directly from Robert O’Hara, “Everyone is welcome and no one is safe.” As a way to sort of think about the musical. And that very much resonated with my experience.

You are all welcome to very much experience this musical, listen to this musical, witness this musical, but know that there is no safety in your seats. And I think that at times in musical theatre, that is a presumption, that you are going to go to see a musical and that you're going to feel good at the end of it. And that the music will, even if it's a difficult topic, the music's going to make you feel good. And I think that we do get that feel-goodness in the music, but I think that it's always a sort of confrontation with a lack of safety that Usher himself is feeling that manifest in so many different elements of the musical itself.

Jordan: Yeah. It actually reminds me of when I was in graduate school and I was taking a class in historiography and I was writing what would then become a major part of my research. And my professor, the amazing Dr. Esther Kim Lee was very much asking me to confront the expectations that Black musicals have for Black audiences. She's like, or not Black audiences, White audiences mainly. And I remember her asking me questions such as, “think of your own experience. What is it that you feel like are the demands for Black creatives in musical theatre?” They want to feel good. They want to hear a Black woman seeing a big note. They want to walk away thinking they did something right. And in many ways, A Strange Loop resists that. It resists catharsis, it resists an easy ending.

I mean, even as a Black audience member, maybe that was my discomfort when I first watched it, but I walked away being like, “Dang, I really don't know if Usher is going to be okay for real.” And Usher also talks about this in the ending song of the musical. I'm jumping ahead a lot, but still that is, I think that is what's interesting, is this withholding that Michael R. Jackson does. And yeah, it makes me go back to it and be like, I understand why this musical, at least intellectually and critically really resonated with people. It gives you a lot to chew on.

Leticia: Right, exactly. So let's jump into the production a bit, some sort of specific production elements and think through what Michael R. Jackson offers us and what happens when it's transformed into a production and live performance, I think is quite interesting. And one of the things that really jumped out to me in this production was the casting choices. So I will say when I seen the show, I actually did not see the lead. I seen the understudy for the role of Usher, Charlie Clark, who was actually an undergraduate student in the musical theatre program at Sheridan College in Canada, which I was like, “You're in college, in this professional theatre, in the lead role of Usher in A Strange Loop, which actually kind of resonates with your history.”

Jordan: Of a Pulitzer Prize winning Canadian premiere of...

Leticia: Right. So I will say he was phenomenal. I enjoyed the sort of vulnerability in which he portrayed Usher, and I didn't feel like I was missing out on something by not seeing the lead in the show. So I just want to sort of give him his flowers. I will say with that casting choice, though, I don't know if you've seen the lead.

Jordan: Yes, I saw the lead. And I believe that, and the lead's name is Malachi... Lord. Malachi McCaskill. And Malachi also did this production at A.C.T. in San Francisco when it had its run there last year. So this is his second time portraying Usher in A Strange Loop. But our casting snafu when I saw it, is that there was an unplanned absence of one of the actors, I believe one of the Thoughts, and they didn't have a swing or understudy, or something about the swing or understudy weren't able to go on. So they had an unexpected just person join the cast, and they had been spending the entire afternoon doing a put-in rehearsal for this person. So I was like, “Wow, that's so fascinating.” So yeah, so that was neat, I love theatre, you know what I mean? You just never know.

Leticia: The show must go on.

Jordan: The show must go on as we say.

Leticia: The show must go on.

Jordan: So yeah.

Leticia: And I think these conversations about casting are important because again, I will reiterate, I love Charlie, love Charlie’s portrayal. I think he bodied the role. But one of the things rose up for me in his portrayal of Usher, and seeing images of the lead, is what does it mean for a light skinned Black queer man to embody the role of Usher versus someone who is a darker skinned Black man? And what sort of nuances are lost, what other nuances are highlighted? And thinking a lot about those particularities and who embodies the role. And that's not taking anything away from the portrayal or the musical itself, but I think that the activation of who's in roles changes the meaning regardless if we want to sort of recognize or not recognize it. So one of the things that came up to me is that my understanding as someone who exists in the queer community, again, I'm not a Black queer man, is that oftentimes lighter skinned Black queer men are more desired within Black queer community, just from Black queer friends that I discussed or that I've talked with.

So I was curious about how that plays as Usher in the musical is telling us that he's not desired, and perhaps this is where I may have the privilege of lighter skin and that allows me to enter spaces, but my fatness interrupts that, and it allows, and that becomes the thing that makes me undesirable even as I sort of hold this sort of privilege, which I think again, holds and grasps particular nuances. So I didn't know if you sort of felt... I know you didn't see Charlie Clark in the role and you've seen the lead, but I was curious if in your other productions, when you've seen it in London and when you've seen it in DC, if that casting choice, particularly with Usher resonated in that way. Who was actually cast in it?

Jordan: Well, I saw the person who would go on to make the Broadway debut, Jaquel Spivey or Spivey, I'm so sorry if I'm pronouncing your name incorrectly. You are a lovely actor. And in London, the actor was not a light-skinned actor. And I say this because I think it is a significant part of it. I think colorism is probably the least discussed “ism” in the script itself, but it inherently shapes the way we understand and read Black characters. And oftentimes, I've been actually noticing this a lot more. I read a lot of scripts just like you do. I read a lot of scripts for class, I read a lot of scripts for my research, and I read a lot of scripts just for theatres in general and programs and whatnot. And oftentimes Black people specify skin color in their scripts. Zora Neale Hurston did it back in the early 1900s. And even now, Black playwrights to this day still do it. Light skin versus brown skin versus dark skin.

And this really matters. And it's actually something that I think can get missed with productions that are not led by Black creatives when it comes to certain theatre productions, because they miss that nuance of skin color and complexion that is a part of these colorism conversations. And so I actually do, again, yeah, I did not have the pleasure of seeing Charlie's portrayal [in] A Strange Loop, but I would imagine that it would shape the production and the character of Usher in a very different way than the other Ushers that I've seen who... I know complexion is also nuance, right? But yeah, I think it would make it different.

Leticia: We've seen a lot of productions together, so it's what I argue in my Hamilton article, the women of Hamilton, right? It is like it matters who's embodying these women. And when I was in the process of editing that article, that was part of my master's thesis, oh my God, so long ago.

Jordan: Oh my gosh. That was like ten years ago.

Leticia: I know. It's wild. We had seen a production—

Jordan: Because it's a HamilTen.

Leticia: Yes, yes. HamilTen. I like what you did there. We had just seen-

Jordan: Not me, Lin-Manuel Miranda.

Leticia: Okay, yeah. But you too. We had seen the Kennedy Center's touring production of Hamilton, and when we seen that show, it was three Asian American women as the Schuyler Sisters, that activates different histories than the original Broadway cast. So this is all to say that casting matters as much as the direction, the sort of set pieces, the actual script, that it adds another element that needs to be considered. And I think sometimes that complexity of casting can be lost in a lot of these conversations.

Jordan: Absolutely. And so let's get into the play itself, right.

Leticia: Amaka Umeh, I apologize if I'm saying your name wrong, was actually my favorite performer.

Jordan: My favorite one. My favorite performer. Actually, even the other actress, the woman actress also too, they were both my favorite. I could not keep my eyes off of either of them. Their singing voices, they're dancing, their portrayals. Both of them were my favorite. And this is also, since this is my third production of A Strange Loop, this is the first time I've seen a production of A Strange Loop that did not have a cast of mostly or all cis Black men.

Leticia: And that is different. I think that is specifically different about it.

Jordan: L Morgan Lee was the only woman in the one that I saw at Woolly, and everyone else was a cis Black man. And then at the time, I'm not sure how anyone's identities have expanded or changed since then, but when I saw it, L Morgan Lee was the only woman in that production. I believe in London, it's fuzzier because it's been a little bit since I've seen it, but I don't believe that there, I think there's maybe one woman in the cast, and again, mostly cis Black men in that cast. And then now, this is the first time seeing a female actress and a nonbinary actor in the cast. That was the very... Again, as someone who's seen it now three times.

Leticia: Right. And I feel like that is such a different element, also added to this particular production in Toronto, is having more than having one character be nonbinary and/or a woman, which I think added something different. I don't know if I can quite put my finger on what is adding to the dimensions of this particular musical, but I do think that is a notable difference in that the director itself was trying to sort of play with a bit more. And I do think it's actually quite remarkable when fairly new musicals travel to new places and they do something different than the performances before itself. Because musical theatre itself has this trend of just sort of replicating every production before.

So you're going to see Phantom of the Opera the way that the original Phantom of the Opera was oftentimes. That's not the case for everything, but there's a way that musical theatre itself replicates its performances over and over and over again, even in different contexts. So it was notable to me. I will say the moment where the ancestors come on stage was hilarious. When she came in, or sorry, when Amaka, they came in as Harriet Tubman with the lantern and the shawl. It was like, “I'm motherfucking Harriet Tubman.” I died and then-

Jordan: I died, “12 years a slave here,” which is only funny in production. I've heard that song so many times, but it was hilarious when he came in, “12 years a slave here.”

Leticia: Yes. When the woman actress, I don't have her name. I'm trying to look for my—

Jordan: I know, I don't know—

Leticia: ... my program. I don't—

Jordan: I think my program's in my office.

Leticia: ... I do not remember her name, but when she came in that moment, she's the last one who comes in as the ancestors, and she struts on stage, and everyone's looking at her like, okay. And then the timing of it was so perfect. She goes, “Whitney.” And then does this little shot of her shoulders like a wood. It was so funny. And I just loved that moment and the character work that all the Thoughts do in this moment, I think was really, really brilliant.

Jordan: Sierra Holder.

Leticia: Sierra Holder, yes. Sierra Holder, who plays one of the Thoughts and who embodies the Whitney ancestor.

Jordan: So funny.

Leticia: I thought was great. I will say what's really interesting also about this casting choice is that if you are familiar with the musical you know that Usher's mother is very prominent. Usher's mother, and then sometimes his brother's baby mother is also prominent.

Jordan: Nala.

Leticia: And they don't think... Yes, a.k.a. Nala, a.k.a. playing off The Lion King theme, the nonbinary actor and the actress does not portray the mother or the baby mama in those moments when they are on stage.

Jordan: Okay. This is what I've always had a... Again, I've seen this three times and I've read the script, and I'm always confused about that moment. Is it Usher's birthday when he calls home-

Leticia: And they have the big Nala scene?

Jordan: Are they not... Yeah. Is that Nala that he's talking to, or is that the mom? That's what I was confused about, and I'm always confused about it every time I see this play.

Leticia: My understanding is it's the mom, but there's this sort of blending of The Lion King story of how we know it, which is not The Lion King at all.

Jordan: And Amaka was playing the mother in that scene. No?

Leticia: Was Amaka? I don't remember it. I may—

Jordan: When they're on the phone and—

Leticia: ... may be misremembering

Jordan: ... they have the lion ears on and they're on the phone and they-

Leticia: I stand corrected.

Jordan: ... and they... Well, that's what I'm always confused about. Is like, I know that this play messes with reality and so many different things.

Leticia: You're right.

Jordan: But I'm always confused at what that moment is supposed to be, and why the same actor who we understand as the mother isn't also portraying her in that moment.

Leticia: Yeah, actually-

Jordan: I never got it.

Leticia: ... now I'm remembering you are right. Amaka does play Nala in that phone call birthday scene. You are right.

Jordan: Sarabi.

Leticia: Yeah. Sarabi. You're so right. Oh my-

Jordan: But why? I didn't understand why.

Leticia: I wish I could give you an offering right now, but I feel like I have to sit with that a little bit more and probably see some more productions.

Jordan: I never understood why. And I mean, this is something that I've again seen every single time. I'm like, "Huh, why?" But yes, shout out to Amaka and Sierra.

Leticia: We love you.

Jordan: You all were our favorite performers.

Leticia: You all ate.

Jordan: What's four plus four? Exactly. Eight.

Leticia: Eight. That's the first time I heard that. That's funny. Yeah. So I think those are some particularities of this particular production. Can we talk about the staging itself and in the form a bit?

Jordan: Mm-hmm.

Leticia: As I mentioned before, this is my first production, so I don't necessarily have the foil to see about some of the particularities. I was actually quite shocked with the number of props used. Because you see that iconic image of the mirrors, and it feels like if you haven't seen the production for it, just from production photos, that the set is very minimalistic. And this set is very minimalistic at moments throughout. But I was actually quite shocked with the moments of the busyness of the stage and where props were used, where I was like, “Oh, that's curious.” They're bringing this prop on stage, then take it off. Was that your experience?

Jordan: Yeah, I was curious about how they were going to do it. I remember in the Woolly production, and even in the London production, there's a big reveal of this big house, Tyler Perry-esque set that's behind everything. So I was curious about how they were going to do it in this production, which was a little less grand, I would say more malleable, the other set pieces. But in those so I was like, oh, how are they going to do the reveal?

Leticia: The reveal of the gospel play you're referring to?

Jordan: Of the gospel play at the very end. Yeah, it was like this big, I was like, “Oh my God, it's been there the whole time, just sitting there behind that?” That's what I remember of it. And it was like multi-level too. And the Thoughts were at the top of that in their choir robes, which was another question I had, and this was what my questions were around the cultural context. So the thing with the London production, even though it was taking place in London, I'd have to verify this, and if anyone out there saw A Strange Loop in London a couple of summers ago, please feel free to correct me. I don't know that it was a production that used local actors in the UK. I think it was a part of the tour that started here that then went to London to have its run there. So they were using still the same motifs and understandings from the US just doing a run in London.

Versus this Canadian production we saw, was not a part of the original tour, this was a homegrown production by four Canadian theatre companies to produce this play, this musical. And so I had questions about the Thoughts in their choice outfit at the end, with the... they weren't... I don't remember them wearing church choir robes. They're wearing hats and I don't know what to call their outfits. Anyway, it just made me wonder if there's something specific about Black church practices in Canada, even though I know that the play itself it still takes place in the US, so they can't change that. But it just made me wonder about, oh, is that something specific to the way that churches conducted by Black communities, which I know are also mainly are made up of immigrant communities from all over the world because Toronto is a city that is full of migrants and immigrants. And so it just made me wonder about the differences of that. Because they were wearing church choir robes in the gospel play when I saw it here.

Leticia: I think that's such an important frame in which to understand this particular production. And we've seen a few plays or musicals in Toronto that are Black American and very Black American actually specific.

Jordan: I think all of the plays. I think all the play I've seen in Canada.

Leticia: Yeah. And there is a way that I've at least—

Jordan: Yikes. For me.

Leticia: ... witnessed that Black American place traveled specifically to Toronto in very particular ways. They're doing, Obsidian Theatre, which is a Black theatre here in Toronto, is doing How to Catch Creation next year. So there is a healthy producing of Black American plays specifically in Toronto. So I do think that there is, the way that Black American culture travels and circulates globally, I think is really important in the way that we sort of see how theatre is a part of that economy.

I think oftentimes we think it's only that Black popular culture, a.k.a. things that are media-tized and that I am always curious, even though that I'm getting the reference or my frame of reference because I'm Black American, can be very different oftentimes than the folks that I'm seeing these shows alongside, a.k.a. the other audience members who may be Black but not from the US or have that context. So I was curious, it seemed like people recognized who Tyler Perry was when I seen the show. Right? They laughed.

Jordan: I'm like, oh, that's another Black American expert.

Leticia: They knew who... Yes. They knew who Harriet Tubman was, for example. But I question, yes. Did they know who Marcus Garvey was? Did they know who—

Jordan: Yeah, I'm sure they did. Because he was—

Leticia: ... Zora Neale Hurston.

Jordan: ... Caribbean, right?

Leticia: Right. That's true. But I guess I question, do they know who Zora Neale Hurston is, for example?

Jordan: Michael R. Jackson, if you're listening to this, you are very funny. “Writing A Gospel Play,” I don't know if people understood that. For context, I was the only Black person in my section. It was just me. I was holding it down, I was holding it down. But in “Writing a Gospel Play,” he makes multiple references to Real Housewives of Atlanta.

Leticia: He does.

Jordan: So when he's like, “When your cousin Sheree got a chateau with Atlanta.” That is a reference to “Chateau Sheree” from the Real Housewives of Atlanta. And it's just like, it's certain things like that that are just embedded inside of the joke that I wasn't sure... I knew that... I'm going to be honest, I was cracking up, but so many people were not. But then there were other moments of laughter that made me really question everything around me that I'm sure we'll get to. But just like the embedded cultural references, they're not always apparent.

And I am someone that is writing a lot about secrets and gatekeeping and what does it mean to embed references to Black life within the dramaturgical structure of your productions. And seeing this musical now for a third time, I feel like Michael R. Jackson is doing the Zora Neale Hurston in that way, in that A Strange Loop is operating absolutely on multiple levels as audience members. There's just so much in there that can be missed if you do not understand references to Black cultural production. And I'm going to even go as far to say Black American culture, specifically. Not saying that it can't resonate beyond that, and clearly it does, but it just is like there's so many nuances.

Leticia: Right. Definitely, so. And you just conjured my experience of that gospel play moment where Usher's like, “You want me to write a gospel play? Well, here goes your gospel play, but it's not the way that you want this gospel play to exist, me.” And let me tell you again, I have no frame of reference for any other productions, but when they're on stage and they're singing a little song, “Jesus.”

Jordan: “Jesus.”

Leticia: “Jesus.” And then the crucifixes come down to the side and you're like, okay, there's these neon lights crucifixes of “Jesus” and they're just keep doing the song. And then the stakes are raised because what comes from the rafters, a big, huge banner that says “Hell is real.” Which is referred [to] multiple times in the script that is jarring and shocking as it's supposed to be, right? We're not supposed to be comfortable in this gospel play, we are supposed to sort of feel the discomfort that Usher has been feeling throughout this entire musical. We are supposed to squirm in our seats, we're supposed to be like, “oh my God, this is so provocative.” And let me just tell you I-

Jordan: “AIDS is God punishment.” “AIDS is God's punishment.” Whoa.

Leticia: I felt that so intensely. And that I think that it really sort of raises, I think part of the project of A Strange Loop, which is to sort of explore, like you said at the beginning of the podcast, this sort of raw Black queer life, and specifically as it exists in a Black queer fat man who is trying to make his dreams come true, but also just get through day to day to day and to not fall so deeply into his self-loathing that it literally explodes inside out even as the people who are supposed to love him the most are adding to the baggage constantly when all truly Usher wants at the end of the day is to feel loved, even as the people who say they love him do not express love, but he still loves them. It's the sort of madness it, of Black queerness that I think makes this particular musical so brilliant.

I do think there's something very freeing about the messiness and chaos of A Strange Loop… I do hope that it opens up even more messiness of Black life in mainstream theatres.

Jordan: It made me go back to, it made me think about representations of Black queerness and acceptance or tolerance or lack thereof. And specifically, for example, the episode of Master of None co-written by Aziz Ansari and Lena Waithe about her journey with her mother, that character that Lena Waithe portrayed, the journey of what it looks like, the actual, a more realistic experience of Black queerness that isn't just outright damnation, but also isn't like “We love you no matter what” type of thing. And I guess, it just made me really, I keep going back to that last scene, last song, not last, but one of the last songs that the “AIDS is God's punishment” song and the whole sort of gospel play scene. And it always makes me question why the mother had to face that alone.

Leticia: I think that's a great point.

Jordan: Why does she have to bear the brunt for all of that alone? Because as we saw throughout those family scenes, it was not just her. It was a culture of, obviously we're all steeped inside of an anti-Black, anti-queer, misogynistic, patriarchal culture. It's not like that is, but it felt, every time I see it gets even more clear to me, it's like it just feels like the burden is placed almost solely on her. And maybe it's because she's the one that's willing to engage. So when you have that... It's kind of how I feel as a Black feminist professor, where it's like, because you will be a more sympathetic ear, to reference the musical, to students, that also then opens you up to also more antagonism from them because they want and expect and demand a lot more of you because they think that you should know better that they don't actually expect from their male professors or White male professors in particular. And I wonder if that's a similar thing with Usher's mother. It always makes me uncomfortable. It's like, why is she the one that has to answer for everything?

Leticia: Everybody.

Jordan: Everybody. Society, “Inwood Daddy,” she's literally taking all of the heat for everything. And I understand acculturation is a part of it. She raised him, he grew up in that household. But yeah, it always made me uncomfortable and it made me even more uncomfortable now.

Leticia: Yeah, I think, yes, I agree with that sort of discomfort. And we're Black feminists, so we're always thinking about how Black women show up. And we used to joke in grad school, let's make a list of plays where Black women are written with the sort of complexities in which Black women playwrights write Black men. That used to be our running joke. So I—

Jordan: We need to go back to that. Let's just go back.

Leticia: I take your point.

Jordan: Daughters of Lorraine, the musical.

Leticia: I take your point, and I agree with you. I say my sort of big discomfort with this musical and that I still don't know how I quite feel about it, is the portrayal of sort of urban Black life and the way that class is utilized. In part because Usher positions himself at the top of the music as a Black queer fat, middle class man. And then we see what we would often depict as Black folks from a poor or lower economic status. And there are sort of presumed mannerisms that are basically stereotypes portrayed throughout the musical. And this of course, is supposed to lead to humor and laughter, and it does every time. But it made me really uncomfortable. And I think in part it's because of my own childhood upbringing and sort of understanding who gets to be the sort of brunt of the joke in this particular moment and there's no sort of redemption of the sort of artifice of them.

And I go back to the setting that it's the perception of one man's reality that sort of releases some of that tension for me. But I wonder what work that is doing in the economy of the Broadway musical where Black folks, it's a certain echelon of folks who are able to afford a ticket. And if Black folks are there, what echelon are they a part of? And I think about Faedra Chatard Carpenter, our mentor and advisor in grad school, and her unpacking of the Black middle class. And it makes me feel unsettled in a way that's uncomfortable. And I don't know if this is Usher's perception of what Tyler Perry is depicting these Black folks' life, but I think there's a way that a class conversation, specifically as it relates to the Black folks and how they're depicted in this musical, should be waged against it.

What effect does it actually have? And Imani Perry speaks to this in her Atlantic article about the musical, about seeing this depiction and with the majority White audience and wondering about how regular Black people exist in the imagination of the Broadway audience and how that context might be giving them license to mockery. That's a direct quote from her that I still feel very uncomfortable with. And I don't know if this is a play that I could see, or this is a musical that I could see again just because I felt so hurt, I guess by it. And again, I want to position myself as someone whose childhood, I'm now middle class, would firmly plant me and supplant me into the characters that Usher's perception is creating for us on stage. So yeah, I'll leave it there.

Jordan: I think that your point is very well taken. And there's also references from his family member to these questions around class too, which I don't understand. I'm like, did he grow up middle class or not? Because the questions around his college education, stuff like that. And I also sometimes think that there are problematic references, and I often have an issue with this in so many different plays that try to think around these questions of intracommunal conversations, but it's the framing of things like queerness as White, musical theatre as White, other gospel play, Black. Dah, dah, dah, Black. Bad.

It does create a tension that also makes me uncomfortable too, of why is it bad to want to write a gospel play? Or why is it bad, or… But then again, I'm not going to say that I think that Tyler Perry has the most nuanced depictions of Black life either. So I'm not going to say that that... I'm not going to agree. So I can understand the kind of critique that's going on there, but it's like wholesale, it does feel like a wholesale rejection of the genre as well, which is like, I'm not sure how I feel.

Leticia: Right. The Chitlin Circuit was important for Black folks. There was a point where the Chitlin Circuit was the only thing, and if we disavow the Chitlin Circuit, which Tyler Perry came up through, what legacies, histories, and meaning making paths are we foreclosing by placing certain venues and stages as higher as the place that we should be and then disavowing the Chitlin Circuit. And there's scholars who've written about the importance of the Chitlin Circuit for Black life. And I will just... I 100 percent agree with you. I will also self admittedly be like, I love me a Tyler Perry play. When I was in high school, I discovered his plays and they were recorded and it was a way for me to access, I think, theatre in a way that I wasn't available to me to go to a theatre all the time. It was Black folks on stage. I love a gospel song. It makes you feel something.

Jordan: Writing a gospel play, writing a gospel play.

Leticia: I'm sorry, gospel just makes me feel—

Jordan: You know... Right.

Leticia: I also recognized people in my lives in some of the characters, but I could also recognize that misogyny was present. I also recognize that homophobia was present. I could also recognize how wack his portrayal of women were, and specifically the sort of concessions that women had to make to be happy and to be with a man.

Jordan: And queer people too.

Leticia: And queer people—

Jordan: This obsession with HIV and AIDS is like it's borderline... You know what I mean?

Leticia: Right. And I could hold both of those things together at the same time. Now, I'm not a viewer of Tyler Perry anything in part because I think the quality is not quite high anymore, and that is just kind of a rush job. But I would still probably watch one of his plays today and have some sense of pleasure and enjoyment even as I hold these sort of critiques of them.

Jordan: So the production was directed by Ray Hogg. And Ray Hogg wrote a beautiful director's note I want to read a couple of things from. So first of all, he identifies himself in the note as a “fat, Black, gay theatremaker.” So the story resonated with him in a very particular way because of that. And then he says, “This play’s deep dive into the beautiful mess of real life is nakedly honest and deeply personal for the writer, this director, our team of collaborators and our extraordinary cast. Each of us involved in its creation and interpretation has had to reckon with our personal reaction to the provocations this play presents. Here's what we've learned on the other side of our reckoning. Provocative doesn't have to result in distance alienation. For us, it resulted in transformation.”

And I think that that's a really fascinating thing because I have to sit with it again, it's like, girl, you've seen it three times. What else do you need to chew on? And I also, like you, have taught this play. I don't think I've mentioned that. But I have also taught this musical actually in the context of a Black theatre class. And so that was a really enlightening experience for me. But it made me think to a methodological, theoretical offering from Jafari Allen. And in his most recent book, There's a Disco Ball Between Us. And where he goes through aspects of Black gay life, and he has a chapter called “Black/Queer/Mess” and uses that as a methodology.

And I want to offer some of his words. He says,

First a quick word on mess. I usually try to avoid it. Still at times our attempts to not be messy, that is to always keep it cute, are ultimately unhelpful. I'm learning this from young people. I'm fascinated and excited if not also at times frightened by the ways that many of my young people seem to revel in the ratchet. They highlight Black joy and jouissance that can emerge from the messy or undone, the petty and the slightly disreputable. Still, I've heard many young scholars, artists, and activists misapprehend the deep context of the phrase ‘respectability politics,’ too often casually collapsing this with three distinct postures that should not be conflated being hincty or bougie and or inauthentic, when what they are really describing may simply be an individual self-possessed of a certain sense of deportment that may or may not emerge from class experience or class aspiration and may be unconnected to whether anyone authorizing whiteness is watching.

And then he goes on to say that,

If we just slightly buttoned up the bougie, the private, and/or the quiet can be forgiven for not wanting to publicly engage the pettiest and messiest mess. Can we not? Everything Black folks do is already prescripted as riddled with a certain candela assumed to be appropriate for public consumption and amplified. Not only are our narratives always just arriving in academe, but they are also often read only for their color, sass, and seams not for their epistemic brilliance."

Leticia: Ooh. A word.

Jordan: And that was Jafari Allen once again. But I want to say that that, actually, when I saw Ray Hogg’s amazing notes, and then I thought back to that Allen chapter on “Black/Queer/Mess”, I do think there's something very freeing about the messiness and chaos of A Strange Loop. That perhaps this, we've talked about our discomfort in some moments, or what have you, of the play. But I do hope that it opens up even more messiness of Black life in mainstream theatres. And also Black theatres, can somebody produce this within a Black theatre? I need to see this with a majority Black audience. I have yet to have that experience, and I need it. Because I need to know how Black people, a room of us together, will sit and consume this play. Any Black theatre. I'll fly anywhere to come see it. So any of you all who are listening to this and are thinking, "Should I?" You should.

Leticia: You should. Right. Well, on that note, I think that's a fantastic place to end. But before we go, we will as always leave you with an offering here at Daughters of Lorraine. So for our reading lists, if you want to read more plays and books and articles that engage similar ideas, themes, traditions as A Strange Loop for plays we offer you, Don’t Bother Me, I Can’t Cope by Micki Grant and Vinnette Carroll.

Jordan: For a gospel play that does some... You know what I mean? That's a-

Leticia: Or a gospel play.

Jordan: No, I'm saying that is a gospel play. Right? It uses the traditions of gospel music and everything in a way that I feel like is very nuanced and lovely. So I'm like, I don't want us to read some more gospel plays.

Leticia: Right. Passing Strange by Stew and Heidi Rodewald. How to Catch Creation by Christina Anderson. Ms. Blakk for President by Tarell Alvin McCraney, friend of the podcast. Sugar in Our Wounds by Donja Love. And Fat Ham by James Ijames.

Jordan: And then for some articles and books, if you want to think more about some of these histories, I want to give the full title of the book that I just read from, which is, There's a Disco Ball Between Us: A Theory of Black Gay Life by Jafari Allen. Highly recommend it. Also, we want to offer Jade Thomas's article, “Queering the Musical Theater Tradition: Narrative Metareferentiality in Michael R. Jackson's A Strange Loop.” And the “‘A Strange Loop’ Reminded Me of, the Importance of Black Criticism” by Imani Perry, which is in The Atlantic. And then some other books we want to give you is the incredible, groundbreaking anthology, Black Queer Studies: A Critical Anthology, which was edited by the incredible E. Patrick Johnson and Mae G. Henderson.

And then finally, another friend of the pod, Masi Asare's article, “The Black Broadway Voice: Calls and Responses,” which was published in Studies in Musical Theatre, and really delves really deeply into voice and styles of singing that appear in Black musical theatre. Anyways, we really hope you enjoyed this episode. I'm not sure if it'll still be running by the time you guys hear it, but if it is, go see it! Go see this production and support local theatre. We really need it. We really need it.

Leticia: This has been another episode of Daughters Lorraine. We're your hosts, Leticia Ridley.

Jordan: And Jordan Ealey. We'll see you on our next episode. You definitely won't want to miss it. In the meantime, if you're looking to connect with us, please follow us on Instagram at daughtersoflorrainepod. You can also email us at [email protected] for further contact.

Leticia: Our theme music is composed by Inza Bamba, the Daughters of Lorraine podcast is supported by HowlRound Theatre Commons, a free and open platform for theatremakers worldwide. It's available on iTunes, Spotify, and howlround.com. If you're looking for the podcast on iTunes or Spotify, you'll want to search and subscribe to Daughters of Lorraine Podcast.

Jordan: If you loved this podcast, post a rating and write a review on those platforms. This helps other people find us. You can also find a transcript for this episode along with a lot of other progressive and disruptive content on howlround.com. Have an idea for an exciting podcast essay or TV event the theatre community needs to hear, visit howlround.com and submit your ideas to the commons.