One of the comments afterwards was about how much the board weighs in on programming—that it feels like we’re not as innovative as we could be, and did the board get in the way? I had folks in Portland ask me that, too. I had donors ask me that. I was like, “The board doesn’t really weigh in on those choices. It is my sense of where the audience is and how fast I can go and still keep the people who got us here in the seats.”
I’m not thirty-eight anymore, which was how old I was when I moved to Portland, and where I was like, “Fuck it. We’re just going to go for it.” I paid that price. I know what those financial ramifications are. And I know what those sleepless nights look like. So I am going slow now with the hope that after a couple of years the board will trust me, and I can then put my foot on the gas a little bit more. I don’t know that you ever stop trying to figure out how to navigate what you just described.
Marya: That’s something I’ve been thinking about as I just announced my second season. My first season I planned from afar. I didn’t know the audience. But I feel like my second season is a bit more about building credibility, with both my core audience and what I hope is my new audience, building that trust you’re talking about.
It’s interesting to hear you say go slow. I just heard this wonderful anecdote about a director who was starting an ambitious process and said, “We have an enormous amount to do. We have very little time. We must go very slowly.”
Chris: I think that’s a Liviu Ciulei quote. The guy who used to run the Guthrie. I remember hearing that and thinking, that’s the most brilliant thing I’ve ever heard.
Marya: I love that. And it resonates with what you’re talking about: go slow so that we can put the foot on the gas.
Chris: You talked earlier about some of the surprises to programming, the responses. Is there anything else about living in Pittsburgh or moving into the organization that’s been like, Wow, I had not anticipated that? Has the fact that you’re the first female artistic director in the history of the Pittsburgh Public Theater been a factor?
Marya: I think, as a woman, I do tend to be underestimated, and that often serves me. If I can keep it from getting personal, those dynamics of being underestimated or condescended to when I walk into a room, I can often find an opportunity to surprise people with my intelligence or my clarity and then accomplish what I came to do.
It has definitely been a point of conversation, that I am the first woman here at the helm and what that means. I think it was important for the board. There are a lot of people who are really proud of that fact. But I also think it’s been a real challenge for some of our subscribers and donors.
Chris: I’m a middle-aged white guy, but I’m also the first non-straight man who’s ever run this organization. And my husband is black. People could not have been more welcoming, but I do think occasionally, on some of the programming from last year, I would have folks talk about their discomfort with the gay content or something like that.
Did you see Pete Buttigieg’s town hall on CNN?
Marya: No, I didn’t.
Chris: He’s the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, who’s running for president. He said, “Changes happen so fast in the LGBT arena and I am a beneficiary of that. I am legally married to my husband, and I am deeply grateful for that.” And then he said, “But I’m also really sympathetic to how disorienting it has to be for those who have conservative views, how quickly it’s changed.” I liked his word “disorienting” and his willingness to be generous with giving people space to be where they are. I think that’s hard, because it can hurt your feelings sometimes.
I love that you said sometimes it’s an advantage for you, if you can not make it personal, that they underestimate you. I agree with that, because you’re going to win. You’re going to move them forward.
I like to call our budget our shared values, to just remind everyone that it is our moral document. More than our mission, more than our value statement.
Marya: We just announced our new season, and I’m getting some feedback from the box office. One gentleman was very adamant that the programming has become too feminist. I called him—I wanted to let him know that I heard him. It was a surprisingly delightful conversation.
You asked earlier about being a cultural leader, and I used to think that was about being out in front. I now think it’s about being in the middle—having the conversation, finding the common ground, always working to keep moving forward. That’s what that conversation felt like. I focused on: “I hear that you haven’t been loving the programming, and it’s felt really feminist to you. I’d love to hear more about that.” And he took a couple of steps back. We got to talk about some things, and I feel like that’s a rare occurrence in America right now, to actually reach out and talk about the hard stuff.
We get to do that. What a great responsibility and what an incredible privilege.
Chris: How political our role is in that regard, listening and finding common ground.
I remember, I think in my third year in Portland, I programmed a very controversial production of Merchant of Venice. A Hungarian director came over and did it. In the opening scene with Antonio and Bassanio, they were clearly gay. When I saw the director’s production in Budapest, in that scene they were in their underwear. It was super sexy and very provocative. And I thought, Awesome. By the time I got to tech in Portland, they were naked. And I was like, Oh no. It was on our main stage, and I thought, Okay, it’s a short scene. It’s dimly lit. And the guys look great. It’ll be fine.
Oh my god, you would’ve thought I killed a goat on stage. We lost five hundred subscribers, and there was a very, very painful board meeting where some folks said what they were hearing in community was that I was trying to turn Portland Center Stage into a gay theatre. I was so mystified by this.
My managing director at the time had been at the Alliance Theatre when Kenny Leon was artistic director. She said, “Here’s my theory. When Kenny was running the Alliance, when he did a Black play, some audiences felt that he had a Black agenda that he was trying to shove down the audience’s throat. If you had done a Black play and you’d been the artistic director, you would have been ‘progressive.’ When he programmed Angels in America, he was progressive. If you do gay programming, it may seem you’re trying to shove it down the audience’s throat.”
It’s about my identity, your identity, and how that intersects with our programming choices. I am hyper aware of that and how to balance it. I think sometimes I’m too cautious on that front. So I think it’s fascinating that you are now accused of “pushing the feminist agenda.”
Marya: I’m starting next year with A Few Good Men.
Chris: That’s hysterical.
In terms of reading budgets and sitting in finance committee meetings and all that stuff, has there been anything totally out of your range, that you don’t like or you don’t know what to do with, or that feels uncomfortable?
Marya: I’m a business school dropout. I tried to go to business school, and all I was doing while I was there was writing the play about being at business school. But I like the challenge of budgets, though it’s not something that comes naturally to me. I ran Washington Ensemble Theatre with ten of my closest friends in my twenties and we just made it up.
Chris: What was your budget there?
Marya: Two hundred thousand a year max. When I got to Seattle Rep, I learned a lot, and I had a lot of mentors there to help me sort through that financial process.
We’re budgeting now, and there are still some things about the budget here that I don’t understand. Some of the practices, some of the formats even. But I actually find that’s not the most important thing. I like to call our budget our shared values, to just remind everyone that it is our moral document. More than our mission, more than our value statement. Andrea Allen at Seattle Rep used to say, “Want to see my values? Look at my checkbook. You’ll see what’s important to me.”
Chris: One of my board chairs was really brilliant at distilling very complex information into something that the least financially savvy person in the room could track. He said to me one time, “Coleman, you need to know two numbers to run your business: Do you have enough cash to operate? Are you on plan?” If I’m on plan, great, no discussion. If I’m off plan, what are the actions I need to take to offset that or catch up?
When I’m sitting in a meeting and everybody’s going down the rabbit hole, those are the two things I come back to because that’s what informs the decisions that are critical for the organization to survive.
Marya: When I was just starting to learn about fundraising, you gave me some of the best advice: “Just do it every day. Have lunch with someone every day. Make an ask everyday.” I’m not always successful at that, but I do feel like it’s a good goal. It gets easier the more you do it.
Chris: The fear starts to diminish.
Marya: I’ve been here in Pittsburgh for seven months. The way I’ve been successful so far is by calling people like you, and asking them my questions. Asking for help. Thank you for that.
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Thanks for this Marya and perfect timing! Some interesting insights (PPT is becoming too feminist? I had to laugh at that!) As much as some Pittsburgh audience members may be adjusting to the new Public theater, many of us are also excited about the new sense of direction, in terms of variety: of collaborators, voices and possibilities. I'm looking forward to continuing the conversation!