Consistent Craft with Aganza Kisaka

Aganza Kisaka: It's not easy. So if any creative is thinking about going into entrepreneurship, business, founding something, even if you just say, “I'm co-founding,” think twice. Think again because you are a creative first and foremost, and so there's always going to be a part of you that wants to create that doesn't want to get into the nitty gritties of accounting, finances, networking, all the [clears throat] of what we know business is about. You are a creative, so you have to take that into consideration. And so that was a huge surprise for me, I would say, which was, oh my goodness, now I need to learn accounting. Now I need to learn law and taxes.

That was fine. I think that comes with the business. But then there was this other aspect of founding and entrepreneurship, which was…

Yura Sapi: You are listening to Building Our Own Tables, a podcast produced for HowlRound Theatre Commons, a free and open platform for theatremakers worldwide. I'm your host, Yura Sapi, founder of multiple organizations, including LiberArte, a non-profit nurturing artists for liberated futures; Protectores de la Tierra, a farm and food sovereignty initiative based out of Colombia; Balistikal, an LGBTQ+ healing and art space for communities in Latin America. And through all my programs, workshops, coaching, and this podcast, I've helped countless founders and leaders unleash their brilliance and build thriving movements. In this podcast, we share visionary solutions, stories, and snapshots to support you as a leader on your own journey of creation and transformation.

This fifth season is especially meaningful. I'm recording while eight months pregnant, and this experience of bringing new life into the world has brought a deeper opportunity for lessons in leadership and legacy and in creation, all of which I'm sharing in this season alongside the powerful voices you'll hear from. You'll hear extraordinary founders building their own tables for their communities, their lineages, and for the planet in this evolutionary time. You are here for a reason, and I'm honored to be on this journey with you, so stay tuned and enjoy.

Yes, welcome to the Building Our Own Tables podcast. Pull up a seat to liberation. I'm joined today by Aganza Kisaka. Aganza, you are a Ugandan award-winning actress, poet, playwright, theatre producer, visionary, founder and director of Yenze Theatre Conservatoire, which is a home for artists to hone their craft. The mission is around advancing the standard of performing arts education and production for African artists. You're using different tools and techniques, vocabulary, doing long-term certified courses online, in person. You have rehearsal spaces and collaborations and master classes. You also produce some productions as well. So, amazing work and of course wanted to share as well—

Aganza: Thank you.

Yura: With our listeners that we are both a part of a really cool fellowship with Georgetown University Lab for Global Performance and Politics. So, really glad that you're here today, that we get to have this connection and conversation.

Aganza: So happy to be here.

Yura: Yes. Tell us about what inspired you to start building your own table with the Yenze Theatre. What was that kind of defining moment that really had you say, “This is what I have to do?”

Aganza: First of all, Yura, thank you for having me on this podcast. I'm so delighted to know that you are a fellow fellow with Georgetown Lab. What got me started was so many other people had poured into me, some would call it privilege, others would call it luck or divine opportunities. But I have been blessed in my younger days to have been in families and situations and companies that were just pouring from their generosity. And I got to have an experience that was different from my colleagues and age mates here in Uganda. Yenze Theatre Conservatoire was birthed out of that, out of, “Hey, I was poured into, I can pour into others as well.”

You are a creative first and foremost, and so there's always going to be a part of you that wants to create, that doesn't want to get into the nitty gritties of accounting, finances, networking.

Yura: I love that it takes a certain kind of person to decide, to pour in this way as we do as founders, because it's one thing to support someone, help someone along the way, offer coffee chat or ideas, and it's also another to go ahead and start a full-fledged organization that is continuing to do programs all the time. I would love to hear more about what maybe came as a surprise to you as a founder when it comes to the actual doing of creating this institution.

Aganza: It's not easy. So if any creative is thinking about going into entrepreneurship, business, founding something, even if you just say, “I'm co-founding,” think twice. Think again because you are a creative first and foremost, and so there's always going to be a part of you that wants to create, that doesn't want to get into the nitty gritties of accounting, finances, networking, all the [clears throat] of what we know business is about. You are a creative, so you have to take that into consideration. And so that was a huge surprise for me, I would say, which was, oh my goodness, now I need to learn accounting. Now I need to learn law and taxes.

That was fine. I think that comes with the business, but then there was this other aspect of founding and entrepreneurship, which was the people I'm targeting, my clientele, my target audience, didn't necessarily see the value I was bringing. I just realized I was thinking differently from the people I was actually targeting, and that was probably from my exposure, from my experiences. And so, the business plan had to be rethought of. I know I'm bringing value. I know the product or the service is solid because I've seen how solid it is in my own training. So why aren't my target audience valuing it?

This is also a cultural thing. We have a mindset here in Kampala, Uganda that deems the performing arts or arts in general for those who are not so brilliant, who are stupid or those who can't make money. It's not a real job. It's not a career that you take on. It's a side thing. It's a hobby. And so you'll hear a lot of people or parents referring to, “Oh, my child is doing those artist things.” And it's sort of just this blurry thing that they're doing on the side.

So I realized coming in, which was a surprise to me, the whole mindset shift in not just the area I was teaching in, but before the performing arts as a whole, is that I'm not just training the artists, but I'm reframing the audiences that are going to be watching these artists and bringing parents on board to trust me with their children that, “Hey, this is a viable career that they're entering and they can make money and they can be professionals from it.”

Yura: It's hard to actually know what we need sometimes because we don't have it, and so how can we ask for it if we don't even know that we need it? That's amazing to be able to have that kind of realization and also pivot to know it is about the skills and the techniques in terms of acting, for example, but actually it's also about just the larger mindset that you have. That is what really makes you a professional. You're working to help artists, actors go from more of a novice to a professional, and the skills and techniques are there, but it's actually a mindset shift that you actually have to believe that you are a professional.

Aganza: Absolutely. One of my very first cohorts, first or second cohort of students, one of the major breakthroughs for the students was realizing that taking an acting class is not necessarily learning acting. You're not necessarily learning how to deliver lines. I mean, you're doing all of that. The real work is in learning to be confident in yourself, secure in yourself, a generous human being, generous to the villains, generous to the protagonists. You just become this whole rounded individual, and that comes from the interaction with your classmates.

And I had to remind the cohorts that this is not a therapy class. It would always slip into therapy like “This is not therapy.” But it's all about that. So you find that actors, I mean I work with actors a lot, so I'll speak from that perspective. Actors come with a rich, rich mindset. You're not just saying lines because that's on the script, you're actually delving into the lives of these characters. And to do that, you have to appreciate life in its whole, but also you have to be at one with yourself and who you are and your failures and your dreams and be able to channel that into characters.

Yura: There's so many levels of how the arts, acting, in particular, theatre performance does come back to being human. I wrote an article recently on HowlRound, our podcast platform, about the power of an actor's empathy and the way that actors learn to basically have a heightened skill of empathy, of being able to really read each other beyond the words, and also with the words that we're saying, to an extent of actually a superpower that can be really tapped into in terms of other aspects in the world. It's part of why it's so powerful for audiences to experience these shows, to experience humanity, to experience the exchange, the characters, because the teacher has always said, “It's not therapy. It can be therapeutic.” Because it is about—

Aganza: Well said.

Yura: Experiencing a story, experiencing an emotion, your own understanding and memories in front of you so that you can process them in a way that can be helpful. And also, what's great about theatre too is that you're in a room with other humans as well. So there's a kind of gathering, kind of spiritual moment of we're all here together at this time for a reason.

You've been shifting your practice. You've been shifting the kind of strategies that you're doing around this work. How long have you been working on this initiative, and where do you feel that it's going?

Aganza: Oh boy. I've been working with Yenze Theatre since 2021, but if you're talking about my love for training people, that's been a while. I'd go way back to 2009, perhaps, training in dance. I had a dance background. So training dancers, working with poets, working with small church productions. And for some reason I was always in a directorial or teaching position in these capacities. As much as I was dancing, and I love to dance, I did find myself leading groups of people, and just like I said in the beginning, from everyone pouring into me and exposing me to what I could be, where I could go in life, whether it is New York, Broadway, CalArts, become a star in Hollywood in California, I wanted to bring that same hope and same joy and drive back to my friends over here.

Through that inspiration and motivation, I was able to start this school in 2021, and it has expanded. Of course, I'm focusing on actors, but it's really multipurpose. Just like the name Conservatoire alludes to, it's film, it's theatre, it's dance, it's music, it's poetry, it's everything performing arts, because they all need the same techniques and tools, whether you're standing on stage, all those jitters and the butterflies you feel. If it's public speaking, you're going to use the same tools or even just navigating relationships in daily life with your friends, you're still going to use theatre tools and film tools just to get over that little awkward hump in relationships.

Yura: I am curious to know about what you believe this theatre industry, this performing arts industry, is asking of us to evolve as an industry and then how that actually helps the world on the whole.

Aganza: They say that, and my mind immediately goes to AI. How can we now communicate in an authentic manner, in a human manner and speak to issues that are meaningful to us? So perhaps art today is forcing us to be authentic, more authentic because there's so much facade out there. There's so much AI and unreal and twisting of words and truth. There's so much of that. So hopefully theatre now, or storytelling, I prefer storytelling because it encompasses everything, pushes us to be the authentic playwright, to be the authentic director who actually gets their hands dirty and can say, “I did that. I did the work, I did the sleepless nights, and I'm proud of it.”

Yura: I think storytelling is the key, absolutely. Especially because there's really cool ways that stories come through to us. Life experiences, in our dreams, conversations. I think that's also part of this authentic human experience that kind of comes back. It really hits to you in a different way when it's coming from that authenticity, that realness of being human.

What are you dreaming into being right now?

Aganza: I want to be a financially stable artist in an African country. That's the dream. That's goals right there. I want to be able to donate to people like you and not flinch one bit.

Yura: Before we get further into this episode, go ahead and hit subscribe on this podcast. This is the best way to stay updated on new episodes and it helps spread the word to other visionaries who are making a positive impact on the world. So go ahead and hit subscribe, and let's keep this good energy going.

What would you say are some of the strategies or steps along the way that you've been noticing that are getting you there?

I realized I had a more pressing purpose within me that would be more satisfying, more fulfilling, and for me that's the bigger win.

Aganza: Consistency is a real thing, and I want to let everybody know that consistency works, and consistency is not just a week ahead or two weeks ahead. Consistency is one year, two years, three years. And being an entrepreneur, they say you need to get past that three-year mark. Boy, oh boy, did I want to quit at the three-year mark. I really wanted to quit. But you get past that and then there is this tenacity that just engulfs you, and you realize you could make it, and now people are calling you because you've done this job and that job. And that's all consistency.

If you don't get past the fear, if you don't get past all the doubts in your mind that make you want to quit, you'll never know who was looking at you all these years past. For instance, you, I would've never met you if I was not consistent. Find those little trinkets of joy along the way and actually celebrate them because sometimes you can get so caught up on the big dream and you despise or miss these beautiful small ones along the way. And what if you don't get to the big dream? God forbid something happens to you, you need to celebrate the little ones as well.

Yura: Absolutely. Allow for the big dream to come through in the way that it needs to because sometimes we can get really caught up on the details of how it should look, but really there's also a lot of power in how it feels, like you're saying.

Aganza: Absolutely.

Yura: In this financial abundance or stability, that might not even be what we thought it was in terms of having a million-dollar organization. It actually is more about being able to exchange resources without money, for example.

Aganza: Absolutely. I can share my testimony on that. I dreamt to being a top actress, best actress in Uganda, best actress in the world. That was my goal, and I wanted to win the awards, and I won two awards here in Uganda. I won Best Actress, and I won Best Supporting Actress. And it wasn't it. You know when you get your dream and it's not it? And that was a surprise for me, because this is what I'd been working toward. This is what I'd gone to theatre school for, was to win and to win in my own country. That was the big thing. And then after winning in your own country, you go win somewhere else, but I realized I had a more pressing purpose within me that would be more satisfying, more fulfilling, and for me that's the bigger win.

When I see my students and the people I impact changing lives, living their best dreams, I feel like that is a bigger reward than any physical reward. Not to demean the ones I've got, I love them and I'm so thankful for them, but there's something about being able to leave a legacy that's memorable and that's through other people's lives, and that's it for me. And it could be something else or someone else. So sometimes you reach your dream, and it shocks you and says, “I'm not it. Sike.”

Yura: Go back to the drawing board.

Aganza: “Think again.”

Yura: Yeah, I love that. That was really supportive. Thank you for sharing that truth. I'm curious, so in terms of the success that you're bringing into the future now in terms of the impact for some of your students, can you share a bit more on what that has felt like for you when you have been able to experience that through others?

Aganza: One of my students told me, we were having a photo shoot for their headshots for the current cohort, and one of the students told me that his mom now thinks he's a professional, because he's currently taking classes with Yenze Theatre and she's seeing the progress he's making and the choices he's making, and he's now looking like a professional actor. So now she wants to support him. And that for me was a tick. There was another. We had a production of the musical She Loves Me. We got to do it here in Uganda. And producing a Broadway musical is a humongous feat and no one ever prepares you for the various characters and individuals and personalities that you are going to encounter on this journey of producing a musical or any body of work. You're going to be working with one hundred to three hundred people on a daily basis.

So when you get to the end or you get to the beginning, which for me is the end when it's opening night and you see your cast members’ parents, you just see the twinkle in their eye. One, because you as a producer didn't let them down quality-wise. Two, they have seen themselves, they have recognized for themselves, that they are perhaps the world's biggest stage at that moment for the country making history. And it's just like woah. And they come to you crying and saying, “Thank you so much. I've never experienced a moment like this.” And it's pouring and pouring, I don't know what it is about opening night and closing night, it's just tears.

Yura: It definitely feels that you are destined to be doing this. And even, like you said, your purpose was kind of realigned to show you your soul, this is what you have to do. Yeah, I'm really happy for you as well to have found that. And I think that's what definitely the message for others who might have that kind of idea or inkling of, I think there's something out there for me, a role I'm meant to play as a leader to definitely follow that because I think on a certain level, it's really what our soul has decided to do here on Earth.

Aganza: And it keeps bringing you back to it. It keeps bringing you, no matter where you go, you can run, you'll change countries, you'll change apartments, it will find you.

Yura: Yeah. I'd love to hear a little bit about the kind of leadership side of being founder, of being the leader, the face of the Conservatoire. How has that evolved for you, or what has come through for you in that journey as a leader and founder?

Aganza: At the core of things, I'm an artist. I'm a creative, and one day it's going to be poetry, and the next day it's going to be dance, and the next day it's a theatre piece. But that disorganizes society's minds. For some reason, you have to be in this confine of, “She's the CEO of Yenze Theatre Conservatoire.” And I found that weighty. I found it burdensome. And sometimes it sounds like you have this large fund of money behind you. People look at me and I'm like, “Where is this money bag that you keep seeing?” Sometimes it sounds like you are expensive, or we have this thing in Kampala where you have “uptown” and “downtown,” so it sounds like, “Oh, you're just for uptown people and you won't understand us downtown people.” So it sounds like its own niche when you say “director,” when you have this title and then you have this very fancy name, which is in three different languages.

And so initially I said, “Okay, for paperwork, I'll write it there.” But it has been a journey, and I'm still on it of wearing the hat of director or CEO, but still maintaining my creativity about it or changing the mentality around that, how people say that title and hold it. So I've had to navigate that for myself, and I’ve found that I still want to be portrayed as an artist, a creative, an actress. But when I need to, I will put on the director hat, and I'll have the tools to direct. I'll have the tools to executive produce the hell out of anything. But at the core of things, I'm a creative, I'm an artist.

Yura: And like you were saying earlier too, the acting skills, they can help in any situation, including leadership into the different hats of what's being asked. Because of that founder journey, it is a very unique thing to start something that it doesn't exist yet and play all the roles, play what's needed, and if you aren't able to find someone that can.

Aganza: Yeah. For a moment, you might need to play all the roles just so that you know them and the ones you don't want and the ones you need and the ones you never thought about. And so when you call people on board, you know exactly what you want. But also, like you've said, and I completely agree with, it's an opportunity to serve. It doesn't mean you're the brains, necessarily, the brains behind everything, but you're just able to put the pieces together and have a strategy of putting the pieces together, and you just have great individuals help you do that along the way.

Yura: I have LiberArte, which is a nonprofit arts organization incorporated in the US doing global work, but I've also done various other startups including this podcast. It kind of was started before the nonprofit was started, and so I've had multiple chances and experiences of what it means to start up something. It's definitely taught me what I'm passionate about, what I enjoy, what I don't enjoy, what I don't know much about. Actually because I'm pregnant, because of my pregnancy right now too, it's been pushing and encouraging to go ahead and find who are the people that are taking some of these responsibilities, all of these roles that I've been doing.

Aganza: Has it been easy to let go?

Yura: I would say it has been easier than I would think, and I think it is because there's this, I don't know if excuse or just way of being able to bring an understanding that it's like I am going to be out for a bit, and also there's shifts in the amount of time that I'll have to focus on these certain things. There's a kind of, maybe for me, and then it reflects to the other person, too, of this responsibility needs to be passed on, and it's time, and this is it. It's like, this is the moment. So how has that been for you in terms of building a team, bringing people on?

Aganza: Putting someone in a class to train, say, your children with peanuts of information as opposed to someone who has mastered this, has gone for workshop, has gone for the classes, has studied it backwards and forwards and interacted with it and contradicted it and said, “I like this, but I prefer this, so I'm going to go with this.” And can give students a whole rounded explanation for a matter, that's what I'm going for. It's quality, because you're impacting generations. If you need TikTok, TikTok's there. If you need YouTube, YouTube's there. But if you're coming to me, you're going to get a buffet, a really good buffet of learning, of experience. So, finding people with that same mentality has been a challenge. And unfortunately, I've only found it with my colleagues abroad, but I'm confident that Ugandans are coming on board, and I look forward to working with them.

Yura: I'm so glad to have gotten to know you. I'm glad that all our listeners get to know you. Keep following you. Where can we follow you, learn more, stay connected?

Aganza: Thank you. I'm on all social medias, I think. I hope. You can find me on LinkedIn as Aganza Kisaka. I'm also very much on Instagram as Aganza as well, and Yenze Theatre is also on Instagram and on LinkedIn and Twitter or X, where else? Facebook. Yes, we have websites, yenzetheatreconservatoire.com and aganzakisaka.com, but if you reach me on Instagram or LinkedIn, I shall reply.

Yura: Perfect. And we'll add all this to the show notes. Thank you so much, Aganza Kisaka, Yenze Theatre Conservatoire. This has been a pleasure.

Aganza: It has been a pleasure. Such a beautiful conversation. You're beautiful. All the best with the pregnancy. Thank you for having me on Building Our Own Tables.

Yura: Yes. All right, thank you. This podcast is produced as a contribution to HowlRound Theatre Commons. You can find more episodes of this show and any HowlRound show wherever you find podcasts, including non-commercial open-source apps like Anytime Podcast Player for iPhone and AntennaPod for Android. If you loved this podcast, please share it with your friends. You can find a transcript for this episode along with lots of other progressive and disruptive content on howlround.com. Have an idea for a meaningful podcast, essay, or TV event the theatre community needs to hear. Visit howlround.com and submit your ideas to this knowledge commons. Thanks for pulling up a seat to liberation with us at Building Our Own Tables. Catch you next time.